Tosco by Sabian

markekaylor

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I've searched for this answer but can't find a specific answer.
I know Tosco was its own company making cymbals in Italy. At some point Sabian got involved & the cymbals were still made in Italy. Was there a point at which the Tosco name was used for Canadian made cymbals?
The pics are of a 20" cymbal with the Tosco/Sabian markings.
Also marked Gig Ride & Original Design.
Certainly B20 with hammering.
Weighs 2550g but I like it more than most cymbals at that weight (I typically like 20s around 2000ish grams)
Anyway just curious of the origins of this pie, Italy or Canada?

Thanks,
Mk
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zenstat

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What I know still isn't the full story. Here goes:

Robert Zildjian was an initial shareholder in the Tosco operation from the time it began on Feb 20th, 1974. Robert was also involved with the cymbal design. The "Sabian got involved later" comes from a misunderstanding about company ownership. Sabian didn't exist until the 1980 split, so in a strict sense Sabian got involved with Tosco later on. But that's only because Sabian didn't exist until 1980. Also in 1980 the other shareholders of Tosco sold their shares to Robert, and in turn when Sabian was formed as a company it seems Robert included his shareholding in Tosco.

There are a number of different production eras for the Tosco made cymbals. The TOSCO by Sabian logo on that one is one of the stages and I believe it is Canadian made. According to Pinksterboer (p172) Tosco made cymbals were sold under the name Sabian B20 (not what you have shown above) from 1982-1985. I think these TOSCO by Sabian come after 1985, but I haven't ever gotten to the bottom of all the ink and production eras. Here are examples of some other cymbals (with trendy names) from that era/series:

sabian-country-ride.jpg
sabian-cowboy-crash.jpg
sabian-hip-hop.jpg
way-funky-china.jpeg


If anybody else has better information about these I'm all ears. My info comes from Hugo Pinksterboer (1992), The Cymbal Book, and Luca Luciano (2012), Italian Vintage Drums and Cymbals. And while we're mentioning the main reference sources for these, both authors agree that Tosco never used Rotocasting. People still seem to think Italian = Rotocast but this isn't the case. Not all Italian cymbals are UFIP, and UFIP themselves didn't switch over from gravity casting to rotocasting until 1974-1978 (depending on which source you use).
 

dtk

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I think the pre Canadian made ones didn't have so much ink on them (no model designation/no Sabian). I had a crash once and it very much resembled a Sabian HH. The Canadian ones seemed to have a very set pattern of hammering.
 

zenstat

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I think the pre Canadian made ones didn't have so much ink on them (no model designation/no Sabian). I had a crash once and it very much resembled a Sabian HH. The Canadian ones seemed to have a very set pattern of hammering.
There are several distinct Italian generations based on the ink style. Initially there are just straight Tosco cymbals. Tosco also made stencil brands for lots of other companies. But they are all recognizably Italian in origin. There were also two different lines which mirrored the production difference we're used to with Sabian: AA and HH, although the Tosco name was "martellata a mano" so MM instead of HH (Luca Luciano, 2012) Italian Vintage Drums and Cymbals, page 124. I believe this one below is not the MM version.

20-2109-top.jpg


Later there are the Italian made cymbals which mention Tosco as well as Sabian. This one is clearly Italian in origin based on the lathing style. Although they did very kindly add a red made in italy ink stamp. In this version made in italy it is all in lower case.

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18-1585-italy.jpg


And these are different from the B20 by Sabian in terms of ink, but not in their obvious Italian origins

22-chinese-top.jpg


22-chinese-italy.jpg


and there are more styles than just these among the Italians.
 

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zenstat

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OP's cymbal is Canadian.
I don't tend to say I'm sure until I have two independent sources for answers like this. As much as possible, everything I post and everything on my web site will have two independent sources to back it up. I believe they were Canadian made and what Sabian were trying to do is produce a "value line" which would cost less than the AA series without cannibalizing the potential customers for the AA series. But what I believe doesn't turn it into a fact. Any chance you have a source for your answer? And do you happen to know the years of production? You were there and bought one? Read it on the internet? Something in between? It's getting harder these days to be sure two sources are in fact independent unless I can pin down where every claim comes from. Half the time I spend chasing up claims which turn out to be paraphrased interpretations of some other internet post...so it gets hard to test independence.

Thanks in advance.
 

drumtimejohn

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There are several distinct Italian generations based on the ink style. Initially there are just straight Tosco cymbals. Tosco also made stencil brands for lots of other companies. But they are all recognizably Italian in origin. There were also two different lines which mirrored the production difference we're used to with Sabian: AA and HH, although the Tosco name was "martellata a mano" so MM instead of HH (Luca Luciano, 2012) Italian Vintage Drums and Cymbals, page 124. I believe this one below is not the MM version.

View attachment 384979
:alien: The old Tosco is famous! Never thought I’d see the day. Guilty of slaughtering the history and write up in a well-intentioned sales description. Clean up in isle one! As noted probably more like the AA style however interesting to look at. Here’s a bottom pic.
upload_2019-1-27_23-57-51.jpeg
 

zenstat

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:alien: The old Tosco is famous! Never thought I’d see the day. Guilty of slaughtering the history and write up in a well-intentioned sales description. Clean up in isle one! As noted probably more like the AA style however interesting to look at. Here’s a bottom pic.
View attachment 384984
All is forgiven, if you can forgive me for not getting my timeline for Sabian and Italians finished. :crybaby:That underside of bell shot is one of my all time favorites for lathe chatter on a bell. I also forgot to mention that these do have model ink, although it isn't as intrusive as the huge model ink on the later Canadian ones. And as with many older cymbals many seem to lose their model ink due to cleaning over the years.
 

markekaylor

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Interesting info!
Interesting that folks seem to think these later Canadian made ones were intended to be "budget" cymbals. This one I have sounds amazing, heavier than I like.
Lots of hammering! I will post a pic of this.
Mk
 

zenstat

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That's not what I would call "lots of hammering". Your Tosco has very sparse concentric circle hammering which seems to be the same style as Way Funky China. I suspect the cymbal was pressed into preliminary shape (a method which Robert Zildjian and Dick Dane invented in 1968-1970 while it was AZCO according to Chip Stern, "Inside Sabian", Modern Drummer 1983 vol 7 number 11) and then given a bit of hammering to give it a bit more character.

This is what hammering looked like when Sabian were making the Canadian Ks (1978-1981, possibly as early as 1975)







The technology used to produce it doesn't mean it can't sound wonderful.

Here is another post suggesting the idea of a lower price point, but I don't have independent confirmation from a second source yet.

https://www.drumforum.org/threads/tosco-cymbals.23957/#post-266505

Be warned Frondelli says roto casting when he means gravity casting. He's forgotten that Tosco didn't use rotocasting. :dontknow:

Of course what we really need is a price list from when these were offered alongside AA and HH for the same year. I found that I have this in my electronic notes on Sabian which will help.

Tosco by Sabian

'Original Design' Series Debuts Oct 1998
Tosco Cymbals newest line, the 'Original Design' series, features cymbals produced from the highest quality 80/20 pure cast bronze material. President Bill Zildjian said that the company's newly developed method of shaping offers a unique approach to cymbal sound design and manufacturing.
The series includes the following models: Super Splashes - 8", 10" and 12", at $105 to $144 retail; Hip-Hop Hats - 13", $324 per pair; Ultra Hats-14", $360 per pair; Swing Hats, 14", $360 per pair; Impact Crashes - 14", 16", and 18", $180 to $255 per pair; Cowboy Crash - 18", $255; Shimmering Chinas - 16", 18", and 20", $228 to $303; Way Funky China - 18", $255; Gig Ride - 20", $294 retail; Vibe Ride - 20", $294 retail; Country Ride 21", $325 retail; Big Gig Ride - 22", $348; and Accent Band/Orchestral Cymbals - 14", 16", and 18", $360 to $510 per matched pair.

From: https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-53115043.html

but I fear the original has been lost due a takeover.

Oh, and the older Italian Tosco (pre Sabian ink of any kind) cymbals have a pressed in trademark stamp which is a much smaller version of the ink stamp. These later Tosco "Original Design" seem to have a pressed in trademark stamp which is the same as the Tosco logo with the rings around it. This is based on a few examples I've got. But I'm not sure about all the B20 by Sabian and Italian made Tosco by Sabian (which have traditional Tosco ink plus the little by Sabian added).
 
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crash

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I’ve got a Canadian Tosco that’s my favorite ride. Took some others to the local drum shop for consignment. They were hoping I’d brought it in. No chance!
 

FunkyCrime

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Cool thread! I have these 14” hats available if anyone’s interested. They’re actually quite nice.
 

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mlucas123

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There was a second run of the Canadian Toscos that featured this logo. I bought a complete set of them when they were discontinued in the mid 2000's. (Some
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one added the ink under bell.)
 

Bijan

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Quick question- are Italian Toscos all B20? I found one locally and I’m going to check it out tomorrow. I believe it’s B20 would like to know if there’s anything else that it could be. Thanks!
 

Bijan

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So I snagged the Tosco mentioned above. It’s an 18” medium ride. I’ll post pics soon. Appears to be unused. Italian with minimal ink stamps.
 


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