Two Different Keystone Badge Styles

Fayray

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these badges are fitted to a 1967 kit with June dates in each shell. Did Ludwig redesign the badge around this time? I've just never noticed it before
 

drumtimejohn

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I must be missing something. They look identical with exception to tarnish.
 

Fayray

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I must be missing something. They look identical with exception to tarnish.
I did wonder if I was just seeing things too, but the one on the left appears to have much higher raised letters and logo and possibly a different font at the bottom. The one on the right seems to be relatively flat
 

drumtimejohn

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I did wonder if I was just seeing things too, but the one on the left appears to have much higher raised letters and logo and possibly a different font at the bottom. The one on the right seems to be relatively flat
I noticed what you are describing too however I think a combination of tarnish, shadowing, and photography are contributing to an illusion. Perhaps a question could be why one drum has suffered more weathering than the other.
 

zenstat

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They look different enough to me Andrew. The one on the right (514151) looks like the familiar K2 badge with (r) which came in around 1964 at serial 59500 according to Rick Gier's book. That one is later of course. The one on the left (513816) looks much more 3 dimensional and the font size for the bottom line CHICAGO, U.S.A. is much closer in size to the LUDWIG DRUM CO when you compare it to 514151. The tip and butt of the of the drumsticks end a slightly different distance from the border of the badge in the two. The color differences also remind me of some of the distinctions which are found in the 1950s badges.

I was wondering when a new badge might show up. I'm used to averaging one previously undescribed vintage A Zildjian stamp a year, so I'm not amazed that there might be another keystone lurking out there in vintage drum land. :glasses8:
 

JazzDrumGuy

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Late to the party, but the 514 has thinner font all around up & down. I don't know if I've seen the 513 one - the font is much bigger - now I need to to check all my KB's!!

And then there is the unicorn vintage KB in silver that roundbadgedude posted (but I think that one was dipped in chrome/nickel as the grommet is also silvery)....
 

idrum4fun

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I took the liberty to rotate and crop the badges to make them a bit easier to see and then
Badges.jpg
positioned them side-by-side. Hope this helps!

-Mark
 

Fayray

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thanks Mark, they are quite different the more I look at them. It's more than just another batch as the design is subtly different
 

drumtimejohn

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Altering the pics appears to make them look more different. Perhaps the OP might take new pics of cleaned badges with focus that doesn’t blur or generate the illusion of wider letters for shadowing. This way we can get a better assessment. Also taking them at the same angle will help. The 514 appears stretched, narrowing the font.
 
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Fayray

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Altering the pics appears to make them look more different. Perhaps the OP might take new pics of cleaned badges with focus that doesn’t blur or generate the illusion of wider letters for shadowing. This way we can get a better assessment.
I should clarify John, the kit is listed for sale (I'm not interested in buying it) and these are the supplied photos. I was just curious. I think if you focus on some of the finer details you will see there are significant differences. EG: the tips of the drum sticks. Here's a link to the listing where you can zoom in better https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=2207522504
 

drumtimejohn

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I should clarify John, the kit is listed for sale (I'm not interested in buying it) and these are the supplied photos. I was just curious. I think if you focus on some of the finer details you will see there are significant differences. EG: the tips of the drum sticks. Here's a link to the listing where you can zoom in better https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=2207522504
I’m aware on both points. Don’t get me wrong different is cool and possible but in this case it may just be a focal point and tarnish issue. Perhaps the owner may add light to the situation.
 

Tama CW

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Are the outlines of both badges 100% identical? They don't appear so in the photos...but, they aren't taken side by side at the same time. If the outline is different, then clearly a different style regardless of interior fonts. I would hand trace them compare the tracings over each other.
 

JDA

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For that kind of Money I'd---get a new Pearl , Taye, what ever is available (to you- in store) new. Higher end something equal. Those d'rums need polished- it's not worth it if you plan on playing (a set) for the next 20 years. I mean they're ok... for 6 or 750 maybe
They got a hole in the head and rust and nicks all over the place missing bolts..no snare (it'd be a pitted rust-bucket anyway).
 
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drumtimejohn

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Raised letters.
402054

Big drum stick tips.
402055

Thick, thin, to no boarder on the same badge.
402056


Just a few old pics on my phone. All light play folks. Point is, recreating the “anomaly” does not seem to be too challenging.

$1677 usd. I wonder how many of those sets are floating around NZ.
 
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Fayray

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For that kind of Money I'd---get a new Pearl , Taye, what ever is available (to you- in store) new. Higher end something equal. Those d'rums need polished- it's not worth it if you plan on playing (a set) for the next 20 years. I mean they're ok... for 6 or 750 maybe
They got a hole in the head and rust and nicks all over the place missing bolts..no snare (it'd be a pitted rust-bucket anyway).
Ha ha, well I'm not planning on buying them as I have a near identical kit (same wrap, same sizes). It's in NZ$$ and these kits are very uncommon in NZ. However, I do agree it's overpriced considering its condition. But a new Pearl or Taye?:confused1:
 

K.O.

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My guess would be not so much a redesign as maybe a change of vendors. Ludwig didn't make their badges but had them made by outside companies specializing in that sort of thing. If another of these companies came in with a lower bid to make the "same" badge Ludwig would have likely switched suppliers to save a buck or two and if the new ones were slightly different in minor detail then I doubt they would have cared. I know Rick has documented similar differences in Round Badges that were made by different suppliers.

Or perhaps the tooling wore out and the same supplier had to produce new machine tools to use to stamp these out with, introducing minor changes in tiny details in the process.

Just speculation of course but I don't think this is a redesign any more than the various slight variations in the classic lug castings is. I certainly wouldn't use it as a major criteria to select one drum over another if buying something.
 

JDA

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But a new Pearl or Taye?:confused1:
Yeah.. ; a new 18/10/12/14 Pearl Masters... yeah ;)
or anything new ! probably for 1700$.
I thought agree the same as K.O. (the same time period- different supplier possibility.
ever see a Taye Studio BeBop in walnut for 1100?
 

KCDrumDad

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I have not looked into these apparent differences in badges. I will look through my own drums and a decent number of pictures if badges I have gathered over the last eight years and see if any patterns pop out. It could be a number of things, including wear on the dies, differing amounts of pressure when the badges are struck, different dies, different wear over the last 50 years, different lighting/camera angles, etc...
 

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