Two neglected gems?

Seb77

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Here are two cymbals I've rarely used, one sounded too low and washy, the other too bright and stick-heavy (for a jazz ride). I've come to realize my setups often sounded a bit samey - well, not with those two! I took a different stick for each to even out the sound a bit, with the same stick the difference would be even bigger. What do you think?
https://soundcloud.com/seb234%2Fsecret-love-dream-bliss-20-11a-nylon https://soundcloud.com/seb234%2Fsecret-love-18-agop-mel-lewis-erskine-ride-stick
 
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Seb77

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No sorry, it should read Mel Lewis, Erskine ride stick (please refresh your page, I changed the link)
The Mel is 18" short of 1700g, quite meaty.
The Bliss is 20" around 1830g, like a low-pitched crash cymbal
 

JazzDrumGuy

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Very similar sound. I am surprised to say I like #2 better, even though it's more of the initial ride sound and no underlying roar. #1 had more of a roar and I'd think that would be a larger sound for a big band.....and #2 for a small group, trio, etc., but #2 worked here......nice playing!
 

Seb77

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Thanks, roar is a fitting description. That cymbal sometimes scares me like a wild animal. It gets out of control easily, yet I found I need to play "through" it to make it sound like anything, if this makes sense. I've come to appreciate lower pitched cymbals the last year I think.
Similar sound between the two? Maybe the playing and playalong are playing tricks on your ear here, to me they are very different.

Re: 18" Mel weights - they might have come down, but when I got this one from cymbalsonly around 2004, that was the typical weight, some were even heavier than 1700g. I didn't know much about weights back then, to be honest I didn't espect it to be that heavy/thick.
Happy to say I kind of recognized the same (kind of) sound in the 1985 Mel Lewis clinic video with his pre-split touring set. So much is in the playing; he makes his set sound very coherent there, but his 20" and 18" here are quite different.
t=5806
 

JimmySticks

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Very similar sound. I am surprised to say I like #2 better, even though it's more of the initial ride sound and no underlying roar. #1 had more of a roar and I'd think that would be a larger sound for a big band.....and #2 for a small group, trio, etc., but #2 worked here......nice playing!
I agree with your statements, except to say I liked #1. Love the roar! Sounds great with big band music.
 

Seb77

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I agree with your statements, except to say I liked #1. Love the roar! Sounds great with big band music.
Agree, it doesn't sound too low-pitched in that context. It's just that there is so little stick and so much wash, especially at higher volume. I should put it up more often, on the far right, with a more defined one in the main spot.
 

D. B. Cooper

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I should put it up more often, on the far right, with a more defined one in the main spot.
Yes. That's exactly what you should do. If you need just a little more stick than it gives without washing out, what about a rivet or three? Or the tiniest piece of tape?
 

Seb77

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I have put tape on it
Yes. That's exactly what you should do. If you need just a little more stick than it gives without washing out, what about a rivet or three? Or the tiniest piece of tape?
I put tape on it before, but removed all of it. Rivets seem counterintuitive with such a washy cymbal - but might be just the ticket to complete madness! :) like WASSSH!!!ROARRR!! Maybe that's the best use for it, just a big low cushion or crash sound. Now, where did I put the drill?
 

Old Drummer

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#2 is the winner for me. I hear a lot of wash from both cymbals, which makes them similar from this standpoint in my book, but #1 is all wash. At least you can get some stick out of #2 when you want it.

All wash and no stick makes Jack a dull drummer.
 

JimmySticks

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So in the end, what are your plans for these two cymbals?

I love the roar for certain styles of music. It can really drive the music. Maybe we think to much of dry/darkness and stick articulation these days when a little roar and wash is actually better.
 
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Seb77

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edit (mixed up the numbers), see below.
 
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JimmySticks

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It's not a real plan, but normally i just keep everything I ever bought :)
These two cymbals seem good for practising getting more wash (#1) or more stick (#2) from a given cymbal. If #1 sounds like "all wash" to you, I'd say you should get your hearing checked or use better speakers/headphones, but I did try to get the most wash out of it, so I take it as a compliment.
Since my last post I put one rivet in #2, seems like many of you already listened to the file. More sparkle now, which is good. I'll try it as a ride and just see if other musicians notice at all, or what they have to say about it.
As we used to say in the military, " a failure to plan is a plan for failure". Lol.

I tend to keep things to, so we're alike in that way! I never said #1 sounds like all wash. I just enjoyed a little roar, or some wash, for that big band music. It really drives that style of music IMO. I think #2 needs more than one rivet though. I mean, if your going for some shimmer, go all in! Is one rivet ever enough?
 

Old Drummer

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If #1 sounds like "all wash" to you, I'd say you should get your hearing checked or use better speakers/headphones.
As fate had it, yesterday I finally got some headphones working out of my computer, so today I listened again. Nope, #1 isn't all wash. It sure sounded like it was through the computer's built in speakers. And today I like #1 better than #2.
 

Seb77

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... today I listened again...
I'm very sorry - I was tired last night and mixed up the numbers 1 and 2! You're totally right about 1 being (mostly) wash.
It should have read:
These two cymbals seem good for practising getting more wash (Agop Mel 18" #2) or more stick (Dream Bliss 20" #1) from a given cymbal. If #1 sounds like "all wash" to you, I agree, maybe let's say mostly wash.
Since my last post I put one rivet in #1(Dream Bliss 20"), seems like many of you already listened to the file. More sparkle now (along with the low roar), which is good. I'll try it as a ride and just see if other musicians notice at all, or what they have to say about it.
No rivets so far in the Mel 18".
Here's a soundfile of the Bliss with one Zildjian rivet:
https://soundcloud.com/seb234%2Fsecret-love-20-dream-bliss-1-rivet
 

Seb77

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Update concerning the low, washy Dream Bliss:
I listened to some Billy Hart in the meantime, and he's got some really washy, low-pitched sounds sometimes (maybe depending on the mic'ing), and it sounds good in the mix. I always liked his sounds, but playing a low-pitched cymbal up-close is something I still need to get used to - to me it takes some guts to use such a wide sound that doesn't stay out of the way.
With that in mind, I made another soundfile using the Erskine ride stick (and the one rivet I installed), meaning I really embraced the wash. However, the stick was closer to the mic this time so it picks up a lot of click sound, which also carries the beat.
Maybe I just need to use the Bill Stewart stick click grip whenever I play it (didn't do this here, used very open fingers, at least in the beginning).
https://soundcloud.com/seb234%2Fstrollin-20-dream-bliss
 

Old Drummer

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Update concerning the low, washy Dream Bliss:
I listened to some Billy Hart in the meantime, and he's got some really washy, low-pitched sounds sometimes (maybe depending on the mic'ing), and it sounds good in the mix. I always liked his sounds, but playing a low-pitched cymbal up-close is something I still need to get used to - to me it takes some guts to use such a wide sound that doesn't stay out of the way.
With that in mind, I made another soundfile using the Erskine ride stick (and the one rivet I installed), meaning I really embraced the wash. However, the stick was closer to the mic this time so it picks up a lot of click sound, which also carries the beat.
Maybe I just need to use the Bill Stewart stick click grip whenever I play it (didn't do this here, used very open fingers, at least in the beginning).
https://soundcloud.com/seb234%2Fstrollin-20-dream-bliss
To my ears, you've got it now. I can't imagine improving on that cymbal sound (or playing) for that song. You worry me though by mentioning the position of the mic. I want to believe that what I'm hearing is what is, not where the mic is.
 

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