UNlathing a cymbal?

[Action_Potential]

I could not find this discussed elsewhere.
Are cymbalsmiths able to UNlathe a cymbal? Say, by sanding it down?

Lathing creates wash, different frequencies, etc... if you have a cymbal which is already lathed, and you want less of those characteristics, what can be done?

I’m aware Duct tape (please don’t) , magnets, felts, and patina.

Specifically curious with applications to hi-hats, where the contact point between hats / topography of hi-hats has a significant effect.
Thank you!

 

[Rock Salad]

I suppose it would be possible to smooth out the ridges, but I have never yet come across anything to indicate that this could be positive. I have read about even buffing lathe lines being bad though

 

[dhmtbr]

Anything is possible, but you would significantly reduce the weight of the cymbal by the time you removed all lathing top and bottom, thus I'm sure changing the sound of the cymbal, consequently.

 

[premierplayer]

Go shopping, buy the cymbal you really want. There are smooth ones out there, you may like them, maybe not?
Sell the one you don't like to recoup some of the costs.

Google search/sanding down cymbals dfo / more results from DFrg

 

[drumgadget]

I suggest opening a conversation with Jesse Simpson -

Cymbals | Jesse Simpson

www.jessesimpson.com

Back before he left us (Sonoma Co CA) to seek fame and fortune (I hope!) in the Big Apple, Jesse was a major young player in the Santa Rosa area. I remember one conversation I had with him about a curious looking ride cymbal he was using. Turned out to be an old Sabian that he had modified with a belt sander! I think he was more interested in putting that porker on a diet ..... rather than affecting any sonic qualities of the lathing ...... but whatever, that cymbal sounded pretty good!

He will probably try to talk you out of it, though .....

And for sure, he could modify your cymbal ...... or make you a great new one!

Mike

 

[1988fxlr]

Brilliant cymbals have the lathing partially polished down but many of the effects of lathing are just do to less weight/thinner metal. I suppose it would be possible to add bronze with an appropriate welding rod but I doubt it would be very controllable and it would probably cause cracking. Lathing is just cutting away material, adding material isnt as simple

 

[dboomer]

I’m guessing a cymbal with zero lathing is a bell.

 

[Seb77]

I recall a method applied by Bosphorus that involves re-heating the cymbal to add a crust similar to the original "Turk" one, but post-lathing.

I once used very light water-soluble acrylic varnish to a B8 cymbal as an experiment. It worked, the sound got drier and it protected the finish, but I wouldn't do it again. Gaffa tape is easier to apply and remove. I recall a fellow drummer putting self-adhesive book binding film to the bottom of a cymbal, not sure if the glue wouldn't interact with the finish, though.

 

[drumgadget]

Another little trick I've used to tame the wash on a few cymbals:

when you play on the cymbal, try pinching the edge of the cymbal with thumb and finger in a couple of different places. I found the effect on the wash to be quite significant, even with a very small area of the cymbal surface touched by your finger. Then cut a small strip of sticky-backed velcro (I used the "hook" type) - say, 3/8" x 1". Fold this over the edge of the cymbal with the long dimension oriented radially and stick it down. Try the sound again ..... should be a little less washy, but not dead. If you need more, it's easy to increase the mass of your little dampener by mating a similar piece of "loop" velcro (without the adhesive) to the one stuck to the cymbal.

Worked for me ..... on both a thin Spizz 20" and a thin Zildjian Bill Stewart K .........

Mike

 

[zenstat]

Specifically curious with applications to hi-hats, where the contact point between hats / topography of hi-hats has a significant effect.

So far as I can tell most people missed this sentence. That is one reason the answers are all over the place. The other reason is you really need to show and tell us what you have now. Brand? Diameter? Production Era? Weights? That will also get us alloy which is important to answering. What is missing in the sound of your hats at the moment?

 

[ThomasL]

I recall a method applied by Bosphorus that involves re-heating the cymbal to add a crust similar to the original "Turk" one, but post-lathing.

I think this started as a Master Vintage special order, and this process is now used for the Black Pearl series. After heating, I assume that the cymbal must be quenched, which probably causes warping, so that over-hammering is required. Not something you can easily do yourself...

 

[Sequimite]

Lathing doesn't have to leave grooves, one can lathe a smooth finish. Over hammering is another solution.

 

[Action_Potential]

Anything is possible, but you would significantly reduce the weight of the cymbal by the time you removed all lathing top and bottom, thus I'm sure changing the sound of the cymbal, consequently.

Good point. I would not want to drop any significant amount of weight off of the hi-hats.

Go shopping, buy the cymbal you really want. There are smooth ones out there, you may like them, maybe not?
Sell the one you don't like to recoup some of the costs.

Google search/sanding down cymbals dfo / more results from DFrg

I agree - best to start with what you like / want. I actually really like the current hi-hats, I wouldnt want to drastically or radically change the sound, although I appreciate thats a risk with modification. I have not come across many dry / dark mini 10'' hi-hats. The sabian jojo-mayer 10'' fierce hats come to mind. I like those. Very hard to find. Oh - and the Istanbul Agop Xist 10'' Dry Dark Hi-hats! they sound great to my ears.

So far as I can tell most people missed this sentence. That is one reason the answers are all over the place. The other reason is you really need to show and tell us what you have now. Brand? Diameter? Production Era? Weights? That will also get us alloy which is important to answering. What is missing in the sound of your hats at the moment?

Meinl 10'' Byzance Traditional Medium hi-hats. New/ current model. They are quite heavy; 548 / 710 grams. If separated and played individually, they kind of do sound like a bell / chime because they are so heavy. They sound clean and pure, possess a very nice musical tone overall. The weight gives them some body to the sound, they don't just sound like tin, or a gimmick.
Whats missing is a bit more white-noise, dry sound.

Lathing doesn't have to leave grooves, one can lathe a smooth finish. Over hammering is another solution.

Interesting.

 

[toddbishop]

I imagine you could de-groove it, but that would probably involve using a lathe. No idea if there's an existing tool for doing that.

 

[zenstat]

Good point. I would not want to drop any significant amount of weight off of the hi-hats.


I agree - best to start with what you like / want. I actually really like the current hi-hats, I wouldnt want to drastically or radically change the sound, although I appreciate thats a risk with modification. I have not come across many dry / dark mini 10'' hi-hats. The sabian jojo-mayer 10'' fierce hats come to mind. I like those. Very hard to find. Oh - and the Istanbul Agop Xist 10'' Dry Dark Hi-hats! they sound great to my ears.


Meinl 10'' Byzance Traditional Medium hi-hats. New/ current model. They are quite heavy; 548 / 710 grams. If separated and played individually, they kind of do sound like a bell / chime because they are so heavy. They sound clean and pure, possess a very nice musical tone overall. The weight gives them some body to the sound, they don't just sound like tin, or a gimmick.
Whats missing is a bit more white-noise, dry sound.


Interesting.

Now we might be getting somewhere. I can't really help with 10" mini hats as I don't really go smaller than 14". I can suggest that in general dark (= relative absence of higher frequencies) isn't usually found in the domain of 10" hats. Neither is white noise (= wash) usually expected in heavier small diameter cymbals. Dry (= relatively short sustain) isn't usually found in heavier cymbals (whatever the diameter) unless there is a lot of hammering. Yours don't have a lot of hammering. The description of yours played separately as a chime or bell is the expected sound.

These sound like what I was expecting.

The jojo fierce hats have much heavier hammering which helps shift them towards the sound you want. The probably also have a lower profile (which lowers the perceived pitch = darker)

The xist hats also have heavy hammering (and plenty of trash = unorganized white noise)

In my quick look both the jojo and xist hats don't have tonal grooves. I'm not sure if they are unlathed from what I see. Tonal grooves are actually a separate lathing pass. The xist and jojo hats lack tonal grooves, but I'd say the heavier hammering and relatively lower profile are the bigger factors in what you like about the sound.

As far as I know fiddling with the "contact point between hats / topography of hi-hats has a significant effect" does have an effect on sound, but it isn't going to shift them sonically in the way you desire either. Most of the contact point changes on hats (ripples, flange, cutouts) are about avoiding air lock and increasing the chick sound.

It is possible that having some heavier hammering done on yours would take you in the direction of the jojo or xist hats, but that's where talking to a cymbalsmith might get you more information.

Hope this helps.

 

[Action_Potential]

Welp, that does help! Thank you! Yes, I failed to appreciate the lower profiles and heavier hammering of those compared to mine. Mine are indeed hammered.. but less.
Also the bell on mine appears larger than those, which is likely contributing to the higher frequencies / brightness that I’m wanting subdued. Which...I know - sounds like an oxymoron given they are “10 hats lol.

Ok - you all have convinced me not to unlathe or sand these hats... hammering however may still be on the table
Now I have to go find out what “tonal grooves” are!?

 

[bluejacketsfan]

Lathing doesn't have to leave grooves, one can lathe a smooth finish. Over hammering is another solution.

Indeed! You've described how Paiste does their Reflector finish.

 

[John DeChristopher]

I suggest you email Paul Francis and tell him what you’re trying to achieve. He’ll tell you what’s possible.

[email protected].

 

[Bronzepie]

I could not find this discussed elsewhere.
Are cymbalsmiths able to UNlathe a cymbal? Say, by sanding it down?

Lathing creates wash, different frequencies, etc... if you have a cymbal which is already lathed, and you want less of those characteristics, what can be done?

I’m aware Duct tape (please don’t) , magnets, felts, and patina.

Specifically curious with applications to hi-hats, where the contact point between hats / topography of hi-hats has a significant effect.
Thank you!

The raw top layer, prior to lathing, sometimes called the crust, is harder than the metal underneath. It’s why Turks sound radically different from lathed cymbals. You’ll never get back to that unlathed sound once the crust is removed.

 

[Action_Potential]

The raw top layer, prior to lathing, sometimes called the crust, is harder than the metal underneath. It’s why Turks sound radically different from lathed cymbals. You’ll never get back to that unlathed sound once the crust is removed.

Interesting. This is definitely part of what I was asking but didn’t know how to ask/ think about it. Thank you.