Update- no definition in your washy ride...

jaymandude

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Update -

So it finally happened... I go on a gig the other night. I'm the 3rd call drummer for a guy here in Austin. His other guys are younger and have the contemporary songwriter sound of washy cymbals with no definition and snares tuned like marshmellows. You know what I mean. It's why I started the thread. So I bring a 21 Big Beat, an 18 602 crash, and some 15" Masters hats... All Paiste..

So after the first set the leader says to me... " You sound great, thanks for covering but can I ask a favor ? Next time can you bring some darker cymbals ? That's really what I'm usd to hearing, and we;ve been recording and I really notice how certain cymbal sounds wash out the guitars. So... I say... " No problem, I totally get what you're going for. But just to defend my choices, I want to say that when I hear guys from the audience with that sound there's no definition, just a wash. But I know that's a vibe and I'm happy to bring that."

And we're cool and friendly and i'm sure when his other guys can't make it in 4 months he'll call again. But it was a first hand experience of what's going on with the current trend of washiness. Guys don't want to hear the definition, they really don't. They want a vibe, an underlying sound of something that fills up the band without being too noticable. That's my take anyway..

It's like the Nashville thing, before Tommy passed he talked about everyone using a 24-13-16 with huge ass cymbals. That's where we are
 

bongomania

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The vibe/wash thing makes sense if you listen to pop rock-ish styles today. The studio sound is heavily treated, loads of tracks with ambient and backing sounds, very blurry. And they want to recreate the album sound onstage.
 

jaymandude

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The vibe/wash thing makes sense if you listen to pop rock-ish styles today. The studio sound is heavily treated, loads of tracks with ambient and backing sounds, very blurry. And they want to recreate the album sound onstage.
exactly
 

TheMattJones88

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I don't play the washiest cymbals, but I use a 21" or 23" A Sweet Ride, and the lack of definition is a positive to me. The things I want to be up front on the drums are the kick and snare, after that everything else is just gravy. Drums (imho) aren't supposed to be way up front, which I feel like a pingier ride does, it's supposed to be supporting the rest of the band.

I've tried a few cymbals with more definition and it just doesn't do it for me, they just sound clangy.
 

AtlantaDrumGuy

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But at the same time, Paiste B8 is naturally going to sit in a higher frequency than a B20. It will stick out more. So maybe he is accustomed to the Zildjian sound. ;) That’s not a bad thing of course. That’s what my ears go to.
 

JDA

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Tell ya what I've found .. Bosphorus jazz Cymbals in a classic rock setting.... total wash... and they're affordable

So (after getting one - 22 hammer- in on a trade- having never owned one before) I bought a couple few more and they're my Rock cymbals..
when that band wants to get together or calls. Played forcefully they're washier than A's washier than old Ks.
Are they my top-shelf cymbals: No. but for 'it's only R&R...a bargain second hand and easy to find..
 
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jptrickster

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I’m all for a thunderous wash if it lends itself to the music, I always liked Keith Moons wild cymbal sound. Didn’t like the overall cleaner sound as much with Kenny Jones. Zak Starkeys cymbals were more authentic to the music
 

jaymandude

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Tell ya what I've found .. Bosphorus jazz Cymbals in a classic rock setting.... total wash... and they're affordable

So (after getting one - 22 hammer- in on a trade- having never owned one before) I bought a couple few more and they're my Rock cymbals..
when that band wants to get together or calls. Played forcefully they're washier than A's washier than old Ks.
Are they my top-shelf cymbals: No. but for 'it's only R&R...a bargain second hand and easy to find..
There’s also some Masterwork stuff that was really thin and really cheap. Hazelwood had some last year and a friend of mine used to do that. Of course he used them on an big outdoor gig we weee both on and they sounded like ass. But whatever :)
 
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AtlantaDrumGuy

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I really don’t like band mates dictating what gear that I bring. I don’t think I’ve had anyone say that before. I’m not telling the guitar player to stop using that lame effects pedal. I like to think that, as a drummer, I know what’s best...I’m the expert and will bring stuff that’s appropriate...(but also, it can be based on what I like).

I will say that what works is going to simply depend on the situation. I got into the wash riding thing for awhile, and there were times when I was told the cymbal was overpowering, or even someone saying that there is this white noise going on. I had to go back to using a heavy ride with more stick. But that was backing up a big orchestra, and everyone needed to hear the time clearly. I think ideally, it’s nice having a defined ride and something to wash out on.
 
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drummerjohn333

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Seems there have been many drummers using BOTH approaches. Alex Van Halen immediately comes to mind.
 

jptrickster

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I really don’t like band mates dictating what gear that I bring. I don’t think I’ve had anyone say that before.
played w a dude who absolutely hated ride and crash cymbals, tried them all with him even brought out a killer 22 k Istanbul. He basically just wanted everything played on the hats. Yes he was a big pia , I was just a paid sideman so basically his rules ,I just shut up and played. He did lv my Gretsch kit though
 

jaymandude

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I really don’t like band mates dictating what gear that I bring. I don’t think I’ve had anyone say that before. I’m not telling the guitar player to stop using that lame effects pedal. I like to think that, as a drummer, I know what’s best...I’m the expert and will bring stuff that’s appropriate...(but also, it can be based on what I like).
I hear you. But I’d add that I’m a full time player, I’ve made a modest living playing drums for over 30 years. And other people dictating what you play, both parts and sounds is simply a fact of life in my situation.
 

AtlantaDrumGuy

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I hear you. But I’d add that I’m a full time player, I’ve made a modest living playing drums for over 30 years. And other people dictating what you play, both parts and sounds is simply a fact of life in my situation.
Understood. As a sideman, you need to do what you need to do.
 

charlesm

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For anyone who doesn't "get it" with all the focus on darker, washier cymbals right now, you really have to have an ear on what has been happening in indie rock for the last 10 years or so (if you care).

It is not about traditional band tropes and what instruments cut through and what don't. It's about (1) creating blended soundscapes based on specific tones, and (2) having a strong focus on vocals and lyrics.

One thing that all of these darker tones do is create a soundscape upon which vocals can sit clearly above and lyrics can be put into focus, and that's the idea.

It's not about Paiste 2002s cutting through walls of Les Pauls. I'll bet a lot of younger musicians would consider concern for that sort of thing (right or wrong) to be cliche.

For the most part, it's not really about traditional rock 'n roll at all and it's not about *my* sound...it's about THE sound.
 

Topsy Turvy

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Update -

So it finally happened... I go on a gig the other night. I'm the 3rd call drummer for a guy here in Austin. His other guys are younger and have the contemporary songwriter sound of washy cymbals with no definition and snares tuned like marshmellows. You know what I mean. It's why I started the thread. So I bring a 21 Big Beat, an 18 602 crash, and some 15" Masters hats... All Paiste..

So after the first set the leader says to me... " You sound great, thanks for covering but can I ask a favor ? Next time can you bring some darker cymbals ? That's really what I'm usd to hearing, and we;ve been recording and I really notice how certain cymbal sounds wash out the guitars. So... I say... " No problem, I totally get what you're going for. But just to defend my choices, I want to say that when I hear guys from the audience with that sound there's no definition, just a wash. But I know that's a vibe and I'm happy to bring that."

And we're cool and friendly and i'm sure when his other guys can't make it in 4 months he'll call again. But it was a first hand experience of what's going on with the current trend of washiness. Guys don't want to hear the definition, they really don't. They want a vibe, an underlying sound of something that fills up the band without being too noticable. That's my take anyway..

It's like the Nashville thing, before Tommy passed he talked about everyone using a 24-13-16 with huge ass cymbals. That's where we are
I can't tell you how many times I have thought about your last thread on this topic over the past few weeks. During that time, I have seen several bands and I'm actually surprised (although I probably shouldn't be) by how often the cymbals do not fit with the style of music being played. I was in New Orleans a week or two ago and was watching a folky/slightly country band. The drummer was using a Zildjian A Custom (probably a 22") that just was NOT fitting into the music. Every time he went to the ride it was "PING, PING, PING!!!" cutting over everything else on stage. It drove me nuts. Clearly, I'm used to the darker/washier cymbal sound for this kind of music.


On the other side, my wife and I saw a country rock/classic rock band in Louisville and the drummer was using some sort of Turkish cymbal set up. The crashes were okay but the ride was getting lost on nearly every song. I mean, you could hardly even hear any wash, much less a specific stick sound. I thought back to your thread and it got me to thinking about how we, as drummers, really should have (in many situations) a couple of cymbal setups - one for more rocking stuff and one for lower volume/vibey kind of situations.

Off topic question for you- how do your Masters hats handle situations like you described above? I would think that they would still be a great fit because of their dark/warm character. It sounds like that wasn't the case in this situation. Is that correct? Do you think a Masters or Traditional ride (Paiste, of course) would have worked?
 
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jaymandude

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For anyone who doesn't "get it" with all the focus on darker, washier cymbals right now, you really have to have an ear on what has been happening in indie rock for the last 10 years or so (if you care).

It is not about traditional band tropes and what instruments cut through and what don't. It's about (1) creating blended soundscapes based on specific tones, and (2) having a strong focus on vocals and lyrics.

One thing that all of these darker tones do is create a soundscape upon which vocals can sit clearly above and lyrics can be put into focus, and that's the idea.

It's not about Paiste 2002s cutting through walls of Les Pauls. I'll bet a lot of younger musicians would consider concern for that sort of thing (right or wrong) to be cliche.

For the most part, it's not really about traditional rock 'n roll at all and it's not about *my* sound...it's about THE sound.
Thanks for this. I can say for myself that most of the situations I’m involved in do not require or need this kind of dark wash blanket. Again, speaking for myself, I know it’s out there, I hear it,but I’m not often part of the current trend of bands and songwriters. I stay primarily in blues, harder or classic rock, soul, and occasionally jazz world; which require the same awareness but different choices.

I know now, without a doubt, to be more attuned to it in the future
 
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jaymandude

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I can't tell you how many times I have thought about your last thread on this topic over the past few weeks. During that time, I have seen several bands and I'm actually surprised (although I probably shouldn't be) by how often the cymbals do not fit with the style of music being played. I was actually in New Orleans a week or two ago and was watching a folky/slightly country band. The drummer was using a Zildjian A Custom (probably a 22") that just was NOT fitting into the music. Every time he went to the ride it was "PING, PING, PING!!!" cutting over everything else on stage. It drove me nuts.
Clearly, I'm used to the darker/washier cymbal sound for this kind of music.


On the other side, my wife and I saw a country rock/classic rock band in Louisville and the drummer was using some sort of Turkish cymbal set up. The crashes were okay but the ride was getting lost on nearly every song. I mean, you could hardly even hear any wash, much less a specific stick sound. I thought back to your thread and it got me to thinking about how we, as drummers, really should have (in many situations) a couple of cymbal setups - one for more rocking stuff and one for lower volume/vibey kind of situations.

Off topic question for you- how do your Masters hats handle situations like you described above? I would think that they would still be a great fit because of their dark/warm character. It sounds like that wasn't the case in this situation. Is that correct? Do you think a Masters or Traditional ride (Paiste, of course) would have worked?
Thanks for the feedback. It’s funny, once you start noticing it you can’t un-notice it :cool:

As far as Paiste is concerned. I think the hats are fine. There’s maybe better choices in that line, the new extra thins are probably specifically created by keltner for this. If I had to pick one specific Paiste line for this genre I’d likely say Traditionals. For this gig it was more the 21 big beat was the culprit, more than anything else. Another good choice would be thin 20 and 22 602 crashes as rides.

As you’re no doubt aware. Most of the players in this sonic spectrum are rolling with Istanbul and K Con. That clearly works, maybe not for everything but we’re not talking about that.
 

Bri6366

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Seems there have been many drummers using BOTH approaches. Alex Van Halen immediately comes to mind.
It seems like the guy the OP was backing darker, warmer cymbals that blended with the music rather than bright, cutting cymbals. Dry and Dark is in and these days even regular K Dark Crashes would probably be considered too bright and cutting to some. Personally I'm a 2002 guy and I don't have any options on the darker side of the house.
 


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