Vintage (?) 22" Zildjian Swish Knocker

zenstat

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According to Zildjian the Swish Knocker came out in 1979 (in 22") and was available until there was a design change in 2010. There seems to be a second model called just a Swish, and that was around in multiple sizes listed in the 1980 A Zildjian lineup. I'm not sure exactly how to tell a Swish Knocker from a plain Swish off the top of my head. I'd need to look it up unless somebody else has the info to hand.

That one is wearing what we call the "1970s stamp", but that particular stamp seems to have been in use from the early 1970s right through to the laser serials in 1994. So on the stamp alone we would have wide year limits of 1979-1993 if it is a Swish Knocker. If it still had ink that might narrow things down. And if it is a plain Swish the years shift from 197?-1984...but I need to go check on a few of my databases to see if I can pin down the first Swish year.
 

kb

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I'm not an expert but, to the best of my knowledge:

The Swish Knocker was specifically 22" and had 20 rivets.

Regular Swishes were available in multiple sizes, and had 6 or 8 rivets, or perhaps, none at all.
 

Sticks and Brass

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This could have started out as a 6 rivet 22" swish and someone got rivet happy, and, unable to evenly place 20 rivets, put in 6 more trying to get close to the swish knocker style and sound.

From what I've been reading, Gene Krupa is associated with the first swish cymbals, made by Zildjian, and having 6 rivets. Mel Lewis took it further, having 20 rivets in a 22" swish. He called his a knocker. Zildjian stopped making this style of cymbal for a while, and later (when?) reintroduced Lewis' knocker cymbal as the swish knocker.
 

zenstat

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If you click on the link I gave earlier to the big pdf of model introductions and deletions, you will see that the 2010 year I mentioned is the last year for the "older" style knocker. Then in 2011 (laser serial starting AA ) it was redesigned based on the original Mel Lewis Village Vanguard cymbal. So there may not be a gap in production from the 1979 Swish Knocker to the 2011 Mel Lewis version. Just a replacement of one with the other in 2011. So says Zildjian anyway. What I'm not sure about is what might have been happening in the 1950s and 1960s. The big pdf really only kicks in at 1970. The Swish itself goes back to at least 1938 (Zildjian filed a patent on it), and I've got examples from then as well as the mid 1950s. But as I said I'm still not sure how the Swish Knocker is different from the Swish.
 

Sticks and Brass

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Thanks again Zenstat.

I've been Google searching this and some of what I've found there is a very small, shallower bell and a deeper bow, along with the 20 rivets and 22" diameter.

BTW, the zildjian link in your first reply came up 404 not found.
 

zenstat

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Hmmm. Somebody seems to have changed the operation of something. Thanks for letting me know. The DFO software is prepending DFO on the front of my address which is why it fails. Here is another try. Last time I did it via a method which used to work but doesn't seem to now. :dontknow:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/images/models-1970-2017.pdf

As far as what the differences are, I was wondering if the bell size and shape was different between the swish and the swish knocker. Hopefully I'll be able to find an ad or catalog which gives a full description of the difference. If you find a useful like could you pass it to me please? I may have some ad or catalog scans from the right period but so far I haven't found the right ones.

*edit* I've gone back an fixed the earlier one by explicitly putting in the http prefix. That leaves me unsure as to who the culprit is. It could be the new version of Firefox I'm using or it could be the DFO software. Programmers. Harrump.
 

Cliff DeArment

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As far as I know, the only real difference from a Swish vs. Knocker is weight, mostly around the edge to drive a loud chorus, knock --knock -- n-knock.
 

Bri6366

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If you click on the link I gave earlier to the big pdf of model introductions and deletions, you will see that the 2010 year I mentioned is the last year for the "older" style knocker. Then in 2011 (laser serial starting AA ) it was redesigned based on the original Mel Lewis Village Vanguard cymbal. So there may not be a gap in production from the 1979 Swish Knocker to the 2011 Mel Lewis version. Just a replacement of one with the other in 2011. So says Zildjian anyway. What I'm not sure about is what might have been happening in the 1950s and 1960s. The big pdf really only kicks in at 1970. The Swish itself goes back to at least 1938 (Zildjian filed a patent on it), and I've got examples from then as well as the mid 1950s. But as I said I'm still not sure how the Swish Knocker is different from the Swish.
According to my 1980 Cymbal Setups of Famous Drummers guide, the Swish Knocker at that time was Heavy, while the Swish was Medium-Thin.
 

zenstat

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View attachment 402078

EARLY swish. Only seen this once.
Here is a second one from my site, along with the 1939 catalog showing it:


I've recorded another 3 others with the specific Swish Cymbals stamp, but there are also early 40s Swish Cymbals which just got the usual stamp of the day. The are found in 13" to 18" so far.
 
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