Vintage A. hats find/stamp ID/green stuff!

charlesm

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Hi all.

I picked up a set of really sweet old A. 14" hats at a local store recently for a nice price. They are roughly 700g/800g.

Trying to ID the stamp. This looks like late-'50s small to me. The "Zildjian" measures about 7/8" across.

Any thoughts?

Thanks a lot.

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Tama CW

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700/800 is a nice weighting for these. Plenty of slosh. But not so light as to make the foot "chup" too soft.
 

charlesm

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Here's a pic of the set.

The top cymbal (L), as you can see, has some green corrosion/oxidation happening. Any suggestions for how to get that off? In the past, I recall using tin foil, but I don't remember now if it IS or ISN'T advisable to use some kind of acidic agent (i.e., ketchup/apple cider vinegar) or a base agent like baking soda.


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lossforgain

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I don't intend to clean them to a shine or anything, but I'd just like to get some of the green junk off.
It's been too long since I tried to clean a cymbal for me to give you advice, but I'm not sure if you can clean just the green. You may very well take patina with it, to the point where if you get the green stuff off, you'll at the very least have shiny spots where it was taken off.
 

JDA

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that green has corroded the bronze (like rust on metal) it'll just turn black but will not lift off, it's embedded..eating it's way thru the bronze (my next Lp
pretty much so,
 
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Tama CW

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The last few green spotted Zildjians I've had got a light treatment of 0000 SoS steel wool and water on the spots in question. Lightly at first. The green turns to a slightly shiny or light gray. The ones I did 2 yrs ago blended black in remaining a shade of grey.
No green returned. You can give the entire cymbal a light wipe with soap and water to remove old dirt/grime/grease. Go slow with the spots in stages. I had some with bright green areas about 4" x 4" on the reverse and in the bell cup. I just scrubbed away until they weren't green any more. And today they just show a darker shadow. You could probably go many years with those spots with no adverse changes. I wouldn't use chemicals or weak acids as then you'll have ugly shiny spots that will take a long time to tone back.

I've never tried baking soda but since it's a neutral to basic chemical it might help neutralize any corrosive chemicals near the surface. Acids like lemon juice, vinegar, ketchup, etc will basically start stripping off all toning from the cymbals. The sound will probably change. Your spotting is pretty minor. The blue-green patina on many cymbals can actually become a protective layer preventing further oxidation/corrosion.
 
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Cliff DeArment

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There are basically 2 different types of green looking patinas. One is a build up of oxygen, water, and dirty stuff, as patina will try to protect it, just like a penny will very slowly go darker until green begins. Most would eventually call that "antique". The second is created by oxygen, water, and SALT, which creates bronze disease. Salt and water is the killer and eats it.

From what I can see here, it's bronze disease. A usual patina should show the same color, whether it's everywhere, or just a certain area. But, in this case, it seems to show black-ish edges around the green. It should be either green, or black, not both. That can be a good clue if it's full on bronze disease or not. I hate writing "bronze disease" all the time! How about calling it BD or something? Patina BD? Anyway… how to stop BRONZE DISEASE…. (kill me… BD!)

If there is no H2O in the bronze, no BD!….

1) Wash your hands and dry. Take new plastic gloves.
2) Rub dry Calcium and Sodium Carbonate along the grooves. No water! (that's dry Comet, Ajax and others) Much will break away crud. Wipe off.
3) Put the cymbal into a plastic bag and place some desiccate packs and close. If you want to be fancy, get paper desiccates and put them in an oven at 120° to 150° for about 15 minutes. It sucks out any water that may still be in the desiccate. (That's common for microphones to dry out the capsule.) Do not cook plastic desiccates!
4) Let the cymbal sit for a few days.
5) With new gloves, open the bag. Gently rub in soft bees wax or paraffin around any BD areas. You don't need much, just close the pores. Rub off any excess. This will most likely stop any further BD growth. Turtle wax will work in a pinch, but may not last very long, so real wax is better in the long run.

You don't have to do anything at all, but if you want to keep it for a long time, stop the evil BD.

-------------------------

Something I learned in Java. An ensemble will have a large final deep gong. Every Thursday there's a little ritual for the gong. There are many things to do, but here's the important one. Behind the gong, there's a small cup of water. You touch the water and then spritz it 3 times into the bottom of the gong (you only touch the water once, spritz spritz spritz). When the hands touch the water you carry salt, usually from sweat (especially in a place like Indonesia where you sweat 24/7). There's a gong I know very well, about 200 years old at this point, and has eaten the bronze all the way through the bottom of the gong, maybe 3 inches wide! (Still sounds great.) The thickness of the bronze is maybe half an inch, so that gong has been eating forever. It wasn't the water itself. That dries quickly, but salts cut the water (H2O) into the bronze! The moral of the story: Wash your hands!

(Suppose to do the ritual every week for my set, but I'm lazy. Just special occasions. Mine is only 100yrs LOL)
 
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charlesm

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Green gunk gone. 0000 steel wool and/or light-grit automotive sandpaper + 3-in-1 oil. There was some really encrusted stuff on there but, with patience, it came right off. Left some slightly darkish and shiny spots but it looks 100% better, and the patina look is still present. I love "vintage" but I'm not interested in having nasty, green corrosion on my cymbals.

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Tama CW

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That makes me want to clean these up. But, there's no black to be seen.....just bright green. Not the prettiest. Original pair of 60's New Beats (880/1320).
I did give these a Dawn + SoS pad scrubbing 18 months ago....it didn't dent that green.....not one bit.


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charlesm

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Wow. Almost looks artistic. Yeah, that's a challenge. I think steel wool with oil should make a dent in that. It might be hard to avoid losing some of the patina with so much to cover, but if you take it slowly, I think it'll turn out well.
 

Cliff DeArment

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That makes me want to clean these up. But, there's no black to be seen.....just bright green. Not the prettiest. Original pair of 60's New Beats (880/1320).
I did give these a Dawn + SoS pad scrubbing 18 months ago....it didn't dent that green.....not one bit.


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'Hey!!! Who shaked my Sprite!!!" LOL Looks kinda cool.

Sugar and citric acid. Patina protector. Since there's already acid in there, I'd use a little mild acid, then wash well with soap.

I hate steel wool. It's basically cutting bronze. Now tiny particles of steel (you won't see) are deep into the bronze and won't come out. Many don't mind, but maybe I'm weird.

Try this out... Take some steel wool and keep it wet. Watch it rust. It's fun! LOL It's not great steel like a spoon and fork.

Some sugar and citric acid would still be there too, just much less of what was there. We won't see it... yet. Why add more stuff other than the bronze? I want things out, not in. Sugar comes out. Acid comes out. Crappy steel doesn't (it's harder than bronze!). But again... I'm odd. :)

(For those who do woodwork, steel wool is used very differently. Usually trapped between layers. Varnish, etc.)
 
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charlesm

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0000 steel wool, worked gently, is not doing any real damage. I wouldn't use it on a finely finished surface, of course, but, in this case, used carefully, it's just getting through the top layers of dirt, grime, corrosion, etc.

In my case, there were also areas of very hard, crusty corrosion that required an even stronger abrasive, so I had to go to the automotive sandpaper...probably around 1200 grit, not severely abrasive. This is what left some minor residual shine, but I don't mind.

Throughout the whole process, used the oil for both a lubricant and anti-corrosive.

No damage done and the cymbal looks a whole lot better without the corrosion.
 

Cliff DeArment

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0000 steel wool, worked gently, is not doing any real damage. I wouldn't use it on a finely finished surface, of course, but, in this case, used carefully, it's just getting through the top layers of dirt, grime, corrosion, etc.

In my case, there were also areas of very hard, crusty corrosion that required an even stronger abrasive, so I had to go to the automotive sandpaper...probably around 1200 grit, not severely abrasive. This is what left some minor residual shine, but I don't mind.

Throughout the whole process, used the oil for both a lubricant and anti-corrosive.

No damage done and the cymbal looks a whole lot better without the corrosion.
Yeah, I get it. People have different feelings about that kind of stuff. Just my view. The most important, is that you love your cymbal. :)
 


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