Vintage A. Zildjians 17" & 19" - Experiences/Thoughts?

Franklin Nigel Stein

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
197
Reaction score
155
More vintage Zildjians have gone through my hands than I'll admit to. Still, until an early 1960s 19" 1900g medium ride gets into my hands this weekend, I've never owned either of those odd sizes. I've thought about it a few times but they do tend to be rather rare compared to the typical 16/18/20 (and a bit more cash).

I've heard talk that Zildjian made them for or marketed them towards professionals. Does anyone out there in Drumforumland have any experiences with these things? Are they better in your mind, or just different?

1940s to 1960s is the sweet spot of the thread.


edit - BONUS FEATURE . . . it's 17" & 19". Size matters. Punctuation matters. The payoff begins at 2:14

 
Last edited:

JDA

DFO Star
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
25,338
Reaction score
14,236
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
marketed them towards professionals.
as all A's were? odd sizes were just that another choice in the diameter ladder; never heard of 17 or 19 being pointed towards specifics__
19's (all/any/ from anybody..) are useful as left side rides
 

TPC

Very well Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2019
Messages
901
Reaction score
1,220
Location
San Pablo, CA
In the same way that 21's are popular, I think it's a factor of "different than what we hear all the time" that makes them "sound better". I've had some 17's from that era and they did indeed sound great.

I'd imagine that if 17's and 19's (and 21's and 23's) were ubiquitous, 18's and 20's would "sound better" (i.e. slightly different).
 
Last edited:

jptrickster

DFO Star
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2006
Messages
10,701
Reaction score
4,818
Location
Fairfield County
Just another marketing choice/sound/ option. I play a 17 large stamp around 1400g and trans stamp 17 just a hair over 1200g both beautiful small bell crashes. Never had a need or a liking for a 19. But in general I do like the odd number size cymbals
 

Tama CW

DFO Master
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
3,232
Reaction score
2,667
Location
SE Connecticut
I have a 17" (16-3/4") early 1940's A (1220 gm) and a 19" trans stamp A (1690). Both very nice and unique cymbals. I just happened to run across them and bought them because the price had no downside. It was a plus that they sounded "right."
As it turns out they are both good rides and better crashes. And that's helpful because I've found it very hard to date to locate a really killer 18" 1950's or early. So the 17 and 19 carry the 18 duties.
16's worth a darn are not easy to find either.....I've only found 2 of those i really liked (a 1930's and a trans stamp). The other dozen or so I've run across in 1950's and early 60's were just "ok."

I've found 18's very hard to find that are excellent crash/rides or ride/crashes. So it's nice to have a 17 or 19 to try and cover that gap. I don't think the 18's are big enough to get that "ride" sound...at least not for me. Most of the 50's
18's I've owned sounded almost no different than 1960's. No sense in paying a premium for almost the same sound. The trans stamp or large stamp ride "magic" doesn't seem to happen until you get to the 19/20" in size.

The other 19" I owned was a pretty decent 1950's small stamp in medium weight. A pretty good ride/crash. Paid $100 for it. And could barely get what I paid for it after months of trying. So much for their being "magic" with the 19"
size. While they are scarce, the demand for them might be even more scarce.

Rather than a 17".....I'd prefer an 18" that can do the same job....and then some. And unless that "scarce" 17/19/21 inch cymbal sounds exceptional.....who really cares? Two of the hardest cymbals I tried to sell were a 19 and 21". They were
good, just not great. And no one seemed to care. They'd rather spend less money on an 18 or 20 like 95% of the world.
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
197
Reaction score
155
Digging a bit here (more work to come after dinner guests come and go). I looked over my scans of a 1960 Zildjian catalog referencing what some pros (42 of them) were playing. 12 of them had at least one of those two sizes and with more than a few playing both. Seems statistically disproportionate to what’s floating around these days.

On to the 1950s.
 

Attachments

Franklin Nigel Stein

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
197
Reaction score
155
Well, I went the other way instead. Late 1960s to early 1970s. Same still holds true. Seems to be an unusually high percentage of period drummers using 17/19/ and 21 inch cymbals. Maybe they were just looking for a special or different sound. And while I haven't kept a count, I've also noticed an unusually large percentage of the mid 1950s hollow block stamp in 17 and 19 inches.
 

Attachments

JDA

DFO Star
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
25,338
Reaction score
14,236
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
Seems statistically disproportionate to what’s floating around these days.
these days (contrary to pop belief) aren't as diverse.
These days it's uniform. you bash every cymbal whether it's ride hihat crash splash THE SAME AT ALL TIMES. You do not follow what sweetwater does not tell you TO AT ANY TIME. OBEY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME. AM I CLEAR.

Good. Now Which Cymbal Pak would like I ring up? : S :flowers: ...

Ps. QUIT LOOKING at those old catalogs. IT will give you IDEAS. IDEAS: BAD. Do we understand.

pps; You want an EFx stack with that Pak? they're on Sale 30% off. we were told to ask.

OLD:BAD NEW:GOOD
EVERYTHING OLD:BAD
EVERYTHING NEW:GOOD

Moongel is 30% off want I put in your order? Need Cleaner?
 
Last edited:

Franklin Nigel Stein

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
197
Reaction score
155
these days (contrary to pop belief) aren't as diverse.
These days it's uniform. you bash every cymbal whether it's ride hihat crash splash THE SAME AT ALL TIMES. You do not follow what sweetwater does not tell you TO AT ANY TIME. OBEY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME. AM I CLEAR.

Good. Now Which Cymbal Pak would like I ring up? : S :flowers: ...

Ps. QUIT LOOKING at those old catalogs. IT will give you IDEAS. IDEAS: BAD. Do we understand.

pps; You want an EFx stack with that Pak? they're on Sale 30% off. we were told to ask.

OLD:BAD NEW:GOOD
EVERYTHING OLD:BAD
EVERYTHING NEW:GOOD

Moongel is 30% off want I put in your order? Need Cleaner?
My bad. I meant to say that as a percentage of the used market, not referring to new cymbals.

My best guess is that old 17 and 19 inch A’s make up around 3-4% of eBay sales when compared to sales of vintage of 18 and 20 inch from the same time period. That would mean Zildjian made about 30X more of the standard even diameters.

And yet about 30% of top pros used 17s/19s or both. That’s 8X to 10X more than you’d expect. That’s waaaay too much to be a coincidence.

On a side note, now that I found out Ginger Baker used a 19in medium ride, I’m gonna spend some extra time on mine!
 

JDA

DFO Star
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
25,338
Reaction score
14,236
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
My bad. I meant to say that as a percentage of the used market, not referring to new cymbals.
I see 19 As all the time. Older ones. Pre ink.
17s on the other hand were quite popular in the 70s; I remember buying (new) a 16" and a 17" at the same time.



So I'd split it up.
 

JDA

DFO Star
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
25,338
Reaction score
14,236
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
And yet about 30% of top pros used 17s/19s or both
Lot of that old catalog material in that 1958 catalog was from old Use lists. Buddy had moved from a 19" Max had moved.. Lot of those numbers seemed to reflect an almost 40s what they were using...

Still a Great catalog/book/
 

JDA

DFO Star
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
25,338
Reaction score
14,236
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
I had a 60s 19 A off ebay as recent as 5 years ago. Like I say 17s were 70s into the 80s popular
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
197
Reaction score
155
I see 19 As all the time. Older ones. Pre ink.
17s on the other hand were quite popular in the 70s; I remember buying (new) a 16" and a 17" at the same time.



So I'd split it up.
I admit that I don’t consider the 70s Zildjians to be vintage. I’m basing it on various online platforms. And I’m not saying I don’t see the odd sizes, just that they’re a much smaller percentage of what’s out there at any given time.

Also, having read your posts over the years, I’m guessing you hang with folks who would be far more likely to own 19s than the average joe. <g>
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
197
Reaction score
155
Lot of that old catalog material in that 1958 catalog was from old Use lists. Buddy had moved from a 19" Max had moved.. Lot of those numbers seemed to reflect an almost 40s what they were using...

Still a Great catalog/book/

Tough sell on Max anyway as his profile from the early 70s still lists them.
 

JDA

DFO Star
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
25,338
Reaction score
14,236
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
I admit that I don’t consider the 70s Zildjians to be vintage.
that's why I didn't understand you trying to "push" them into the Past..

(or 19s for that matter either; isn't wasn't the beautiful baby a 19?")
But 17s never went out of fashion
 

JDA

DFO Star
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
25,338
Reaction score
14,236
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
Also, having read your posts over the years, I’m guessing you hang with folks who would be far more likely to own 19s than the average joe. <g>
old Ks were closer to metric as is newer sometime Bosphorus <---those 2, that's my crowd . A's are for when you're starting out or returning to.
As you see I don't "hang with" folks unless you mean other instrumentalists
 
Last edited:

JDA

DFO Star
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
25,338
Reaction score
14,236
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
my friends
9 newer Bosphorus (nice)
18 old Ks (Zildjian) Made in Turkey (best friends)
and around 20 -21 Avedis (1 AK) (good)
 
Last edited:

Tama CW

DFO Master
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
3,232
Reaction score
2,667
Location
SE Connecticut
And while I haven't kept a count, I've also noticed an unusually large percentage of the mid 1950s hollow block stamp in 17 and 19 inches.
I have a different experience with large stamps. In the past 2 years have never seen a 19" LS for sale. Lots of 20's and 22's though. A decent number of 18's but those are semi-scarce.
As a general rule, I think Zildjian preferred not to stamp 17 and smaller LS's because of the size and stress of that stamp to the much smaller cymbal.
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
197
Reaction score
155
I have a different experience with large stamps. In the past 2 years have never seen a 19" LS for sale. Lots of 20's and 22's though. A decent number of 18's but those are semi-scarce.
As a general rule, I think Zildjian preferred not to stamp 17 and smaller LS's because of the size and stress of that stamp to the much smaller cymbal.
On that issue I’ll have to disagree with you as there’s a 17 LS for sale on eBay currently. I’ve seen more than a few.

 


Top