Vintage A. Zildjians 17" & 19" - Experiences/Thoughts?

Franklin Nigel Stein

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Figured I should stick this in here for clarification. While I’m no cymbal expert, I do have two things going for me in these discussions.

1. A good education in systems analysis and research methods. And because cymbals are a hobby, I read about and research them.

2. And the second is I’ve pretty much put eyes on every vintage A Zildjian cymbal to come through eBay for the better part of 10 years. You just need to check new listings three times a week and more closely watch what you’re more interested in. So it really doesn’t take that much time.

Just means I know a lot about a little and almost everything about nothing.
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

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Had a 17 mini bell block stamp ride. That was one of a kind for me, haven't seen another.
I know what you mean. I admit that the block stamps are tough to pin down and form opinions about given their tiny numbers. And I’ve never seen a single 14/15/16 with an LS stamp so Tama CW is right on track there.
 

Seb77

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17" Z crashes until recently used the same bell as 16", so the relation in size between overall diameter and bell is different. This may have contributed to a sound different from just lower/bigger. Not sure if the same applies to 19, I think 18 and up all used the same bells?

As someone living with the metric system, I doubt even/odd inch sizes as such contribute anything to the sound. If an "odd" size feels odd to you, just convert it to cm, or any unit you like.
 

owr

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Better check in on your research methods, missed one lol (I kid)


More on point, we used to talk about this often on Cymbalholic in the context of using stamps for dating old As. For whatever reason, there are very few smaller old As with the large/hollow stamp. So you either believe Zildjian only made a handful of high hats over a period of 2-3 years, or you accept that more than one stamp was used for a given period, at least on different size cymbals. @afwdrums had a few pairs of hi hats at one point.

I have a very thin 17" trans stamp, but rarely play it these days since I have a pair of 18s as well.

I know what you mean. I admit that the block stamps are tough to pin down and form opinions about given their tiny numbers. And I’ve never seen a single 14/15/16 with an LS stamp so Tama CW is right on track there.
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

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Better check in on your research methods, missed one lol (I kid)


More on point, we used to talk about this often on Cymbalholic in the context of using stamps for dating old As. For whatever reason, there are very few smaller old As with the large/hollow stamp. So you either believe Zildjian only made a handful of high hats over a period of 2-3 years, or you accept that more than one stamp was used for a given period, at least on different size cymbals. @afwdrums had a few pairs of hi hats at one point.

I have a very thin 17" trans stamp, but rarely play it these days since I have a pair of 18s as well.
Just referring to what I’ve seen. I’m aware that Zenstat mentions a couple of pairs of 14in HHs that he’s seen so I know they’re out there somewhere.
 

afwdrums

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Just referring to what I’ve seen. I’m aware that Zenstat mentions a couple of pairs of 14in HHs that he’s seen so I know they’re out there somewhere.
yup, as Oren mentioned, I have a pair of 14's currently...previously had another pair, and once passed on buying a 3rd pair...they're very scarce, but they are out there...I've only ever seen 1 pair of 15's, and I have seen a single 13 too...16's are very scarce as well, I happen to have 2 that I have matched into probably the only pair of 16" HB hats (obviously not factory matched)

here's the 14's
0U3A8108.jpg

0U3A8110.jpg
 
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afwdrums

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here's the old thread with a bunch more
 
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Franklin Nigel Stein

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So you either believe Zildjian only made a handful of high hats over a period of 2-3 years, or you accept that more than one stamp was used for a given period, at least on different size cymbals. @afwdrums had a few pairs of hi hats at one point.

I have a very thin 17" trans stamp, but rarely play it these days since I have a pair of 18s as well.
Didn’t know we had camps, but if we do then I’m in the multiple stamps one. I’d even say that it’s likely that the 5 or so identified before the trans stamps were used as a group rather than in sequence (get in line to throw stones).

I’m also of the opinion that Zildjian didn’t press the stamp until a cymbal had a customer (really referring to large batches sent out to major retailers). It’s the only explanation that makes any financial sense. And Zildjian was in business to make money, not to make life easier for collectors 70 years later.

It shouldn’t come as a surprise that the stamp issues always seem to arise during periods of change in music (rock n roll hit in 1954 and suddenly Zildjian must have found themselves with a warehouse full of jazz cymbals when so many of the young drummers wanted a totally different sound).

Being fair to both sides I’d say that the vast majority of cymbals were made, ordered, stamped and shipped in short order.

And on that 17in LS, uh, how thin is it?
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

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as all A's were? odd sizes were just that another choice in the diameter ladder; never heard of 17 or 19 being pointed towards specifics__
19's (all/any/ from anybody..) are useful as left side rides
Another odd thing that leads me to lean toward the 17s and 19s being a step above is that SO many of them have a high level of work done to them that is much less common on the even sizes.

Here’s a 17 on eBay from Japan and a shot of my 19’s bell that I just got today. Time is money when making these things and I can’t see why Zildjian would consistently put in so much extra effort unless there was a payoff when a pro played them live. It’s like they were spending advertising dollars on the cymbals.

 

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JDA

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reason? and
that's lathe chatter

You think with (making) building 17s and 19s they changed their mindset?
Think too of the orchestra and band cymbals being made some of that may have been requested in 17 and 19 (hand pairs
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

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reason? and
that's lathe chatter
That’s not there by accident and I could dig up dozens of photos with a ton of extra work you just don’t find in large numbers otherwise. Pretty sure we’re just gonna have to disagree on this point.
 

JDA

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So you think something "different" went into 17s and 19s?

Lathe chatter is an accident; the tool is bouncing
 

Tama CW

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...... I’d even say that it’s likely that the 5 or so identified before the trans stamps were used as a group rather than in sequence (get in line to throw stones).
I'd have to disagree with that on the "A" cymbals for 4 reasons. I can probably think of more if given more time. But who knows, I could be totally wrong too. I might agree with multiple stamps being used in the 1953-1957 period with large stamps, trans stamps, and
SSA small stamps all overlapping to some extent. In my reasons below I'm comparing first stamps with the crude script vs the so called 2nd stamp with the more refined script. The lettering under the script certainly varied and could have been swapped into either form
of script. That's not under analysis here.

1. The larger sizes of 18's to 22's are much "more available" in the 2nd Zildjian stamp than in 1st stamps. I'd wager by about a factor of approx 2X to 4X. This coincides with larger cymbals becoming more common in the late 30's to mid-40's dance bands.

2. The vast majority of all the NOS 1930's first stamps I've run across had signatures under the bell. I rarely run into a 2nd stamp with the signature. Out of a dozen or so 2nd stamps I've owned, only 1 had a signature.
And it wasn't like they all would have "rubbed" off from use. By trans stamp time, I don't believe signatures were still in use....at least, I've yet to see one.

3 Hammering on the 1st stamps (and probably the earliest of them) is often found very deep and quite extensive....much more so than in 2nd stamps. I find most of the 2nd stamps are lathed and hammered much like the earlier trans stamps.
Makes sense to me that whatever the earlier techniques were (ie like making old K's in Istanbul from 1928-mid 1930's) was generally copied to Avedis Zildjian's production line in that same period.

4, Crudeness of the type 1 stamps. Much less refined figures in the script. Dots and Dashes under script were literally blobs with no real shape. The 2nd stamps and trans are clearly more refined than the 1st stamps which look like a 5th grader might have
engraved the "script" die stamp.

First Stamps:

best 6.jpg
best 7.jpg
 
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Tama CW

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I have a different experience with large stamps. In the past 2 years have never seen a 19" LS for sale. Lots of 20's and 22's though. A decent number of 18's but those are semi-scarce.
As a general rule, I think Zildjian preferred not to stamp 17 and smaller LS's because of the size and stress of that stamp to the much smaller cymbal.
Interesting that I stated the above and yet have posters showing a photo of a 17" and 14" LS's to "disprove" my statement. Huh? I never said Zildjian never made a 17" or smaller LS....just that they preferred for whatever reasons, not to stamp those.
And survival rates would support that. I don't think Zildjian even liked stamping 18's with the LS as the trans stamps and small stamps far outnumber them. It could be the same thing for the 19's. Just something they didn't want to do.....except in a pinch.

And I never said I hadn't seen any 17's lately. They did make some, even down 14" hi hat pairs. They made so few that essentially the supply is NIL......maybe 1% or less of all the other stamps combined. No one showed a photo of a 19" LS for sale either..............
Though I'm sure a decent number of those exist....but I haven't seen one recently. It wasn't a real popular size so few were ordered/made. I did see that 17" LS for sale months ago. The price was absurd. And it has lingered ever since.
It's not like a 17" cymbal is a key one in a 1950's set. In the 1st or 2nd stamps a 17" would be a much more important "larger" cymbal.
 
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Franklin Nigel Stein

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I got the 19 via UPS. Very different from my 18in ride and I’m struggling with how to describe the sound of it.

Photos manana.

As for all the sideways stuff about the stamps, I’m thinking bout annoying a bunch of people with my divergent views on old A Zildjian dating.

BWAHAHAHA

gotta go terrorize some villagers now . . .
 


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