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Warped vintage cymbals........how do they get that way ??

Tama CW

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Hmm. A question I've been pondering this year as I've run into a number of warped old A's in my purchases.....something I didn't see much of in prior years.
Though I am getting better at spotting them.

I've heard one school of thought that says it is from playing or abuse.....ie "They didn't leave the factory like that."
I'm not so sure the factory couldn't warp some cymbals in casting, annealing, or hammering and still send them out to be sold.
It takes a huge amount of force to warp a cymbal with a drum stick.....you'd probably need a fat marching drum stick or maybe a size 32" baseball bat....and beat the cymbal into submission.
The warps I see the most often tend to be across the cymbal....on both sides. Not just on one isolated quadrant.
If you put enough stick force into a cymbal to warp it....wouldn't that be enough to crack it as well?

One of my most obvious "warpees" is a pre-trans 1940's Zildjian A ride. It's a primitive looking cymbal to begin with with heavy edge hammeringand file marks from artisans who probably weren't too fussy.
Did they warp it during production? I can't believe that one was wailed on enought to warp it about 1/4" deep in places (see photos). But I would say there is "some" stick damage on the edges of
these photos. But hard to think drum sticks warped half the diameter.

Looking for comments or opinions. It just may that most older cymbals were made very slightly warped....we just can't normally make it out. And a chosen few made more heavily warped. ???


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Tama CW

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Here's a fairly modern cymbal.....16" EAK med thin crash that is warped like a son a gun. Oddly, it might sound even better like this. Just an amazing sounding trashy dark crash.
I wonder if it sounded this unique BEFORE it was tweaked? This one no doubt got abused....maybe even run over.....lol. I don't think the factory could have sent this out
in the 1980's looking like this. This one is actually more warped than the one above. One thing I notice about these 2 warped cymbals....is that the warp looks very smooth
and nicely curved. That makes me wonder if its even possible for a drum stick or drummer to make such a smooth, distorted shape over such a large portion of the cymbal?


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DBT

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Hmm. A question I've been pondering this year as I've run into a number of warped old A's in my purchases.....something I didn't see much of in prior years.
Though I am getting better at spotting them.

I've heard one school of thought that says it is from playing or abuse.....they didn't leave the factory like that.
I'm not so sure the factory couldn't warp some cymbals in casting, annealing, or hammering and still send them out to be sold.
It takes a huge amount of force to warp a cymbal with a stick.....you'd probably need a fat marching drum stick or maybe a size 32 baseball bat....and beat the cymbal into submission.
The warps I see the most often tend to be across the cymbal....on both sides. Not just on one quadrant.
If you put enough force into a cymbal to warp it....wouldn't that be enough to crack it as well?

My most obvious "warpee" is a pre-trans 1940's Zildjian A ride. It's a primitive looking cymbal to begin with with heavy edge hammeringand file marks from artisans who probably weren't too fussy.
Did they warp it during production? I can't believe that one was wailed on enought to warp it about 1/4" deep in places (see photos). But I would say there is some stick damage on the edges of
these photos. But hard to think drum sticks warped half the diameter.

Looking for comments or opinions. It just may that most older cymbals were made very slightly warped....we just can't normally make it out.


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That took a lot of pressure to do that .
 

zenstat

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One of my most obvious "warpees" is a pre-trans 1940's Zildjian A ride. It's a primitive looking cymbal to begin with with heavy edge hammering and file marks from artisans who probably weren't too fussy.

Diameter and weight please @Tama CW ? That's my primary key for storing cymbals in my system and always speeds up checking to see if I already have it. I presume it is the 22-3180 I have on record for you. I'd like to see the file marks you are talking about. I've got good sized photos if that's the one, but I'm not sure where to look.

I don't seem to have that 16" Dark Crash in my records. Do you have a weight for it? You mention run over, and that is always a possibility. I remember the occasional story of a cymbal bag being left out behind the car while loading and then it getting run over. A different kind of pressing into shape. :-o

I'm thinking that perhaps the cymbal was finished with an uneven tension. The cymbal was tenuously held in shape at first, but over time it resorted to its shape of least resistance - probably encouraged by heavy hitting. ???

Yes that's one of the theories I've heard.

We had an old hollow ink a in the school band room that got warped from the cymbal stand getting knocked over and the edge of the cymbal hitting the ground.

And I've also heard that a stand getting knocked over, or just dropping cymbal from a few feet up, might be the trigger for a sudden shift in already uneven tension patterns. Other outcomes could be cracks, or a simple edge bend rather than more widespread warping. I have no idea of the proportions of different outcomes from a short sharp blow like that.

Once upon a time I lent out one of my early 1960s UFiP 20" cymbals and after it came back I noticed it was cracked, but I have no idea why. The crack starts at the mounting hole and meanders out towards the bow but stops about half way through the bell. Italian cymbals get their tension from the way they are cast rather than hammering or pressing, so that raises the possibility of cracked or warped Italian cymbals (if there are warped ones) being a useful thing to study as comparisons. This is against the marketing claims that cross rolling is an important ingredient in making cymbals strong, and Italian cymbals which are cast in the shape of a cymbal don't get rolled at all. :dontknow:
 
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drumgadget

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I have a very thin, wobbly Bos Master 21" ride ........ having seen and played the cymbal before I acquired it from the original owner, I suspect the warp it now sports resulted from being placed on the stand one-handed, night after night. It certainly distorts if held this way now ......

Tempting to do when in a hurry packing up ........

The theory about unresolved tension in the metal makes sense to me ..... but something has to release it. Some cymbals are just "softer" than others ....... more malleable .......

M.
 

Tama CW

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Diameter and weight please @Tama CW ? That's my primary key for storing cymbals in my system and always speeds up checking to see if I already have it. I presume it is the 22-3180 I have on record for you. I'd like to see the file marks you are talking about. I've got good sized photos if that's the one, but I'm not sure where to look.

I don't seem to have that 16" Dark Crash in my records. Do you have a weight for it? You mention run over, and that is always a possibility. I remember the occasional story of a cymbal bag being left out behind the car while loading and then it getting run over. A different kind of pressing into shape. :-o



Yes that's one of the theories I've heard.



And I've also heard that a stand getting knocked over, or just dropping cymbal from a few feet up, might be the trigger for a sudden shift in already uneven tension patterns. Other outcomes could be cracks, or a simple edge bend rather than more widespread warping. I have no idea of the proportions of different outcomes from a short sharp blow like that.

Once upon a time I lent out one of my early 1960s UFiP 20" cymbals and after it came back I noticed it was cracked, but I have no idea why. The crack starts at the mounting hole and meanders out towards the bow but stops about half way through the bell. Italian cymbals get their tension from the way they are cast rather than hammering or pressing, so that raises the possibility of cracked or warped Italian cymbals (if there are warped ones) being a useful thing to study as comparisons. This is against the marketing claims that cross rolling is an important ingredient in making cymbals strong, and Italian cymbals which are cast in the shape of a cymbal don't get rolled at all. :dontknow:

The first cymbal I listed was that 22" at 3180 gm that you are already aware of. I included a photo showing what I think is some type of filing along the edge (at 6:30). My un-stamped 30's nearly new 20" has a 1" square area on the bottom where you can see they ground out some defect or porosity.

The 16 EAK dark crash (1st generation) is 1071 gm. I don't think I ever listed the weight before. This one is at home with old K Istanbuls and pre-trans stamp A's. It has that feel and wobble too it.
It's almost too different to mix with "regular" EAK's. Then again, I've heard very few EAK 16/18 dark crashes.


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DBT

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I’m surprised no one has mentioned long term storage as a possibility. I would think of a cymbal is stood up on its edge but possibly with the pressure of other cymbals against it, a warp could develop.
I have many that have been laid flat in boxes starting with the biggest and cup size on the bottom . Smaller sizes in a different box so the cups sit nice etc. the weight of them on top of each other seems to keep them honest . Never been a fan of leaning them up even when they are being used consistently . The problem with that is you can forget what you actually have if you own a lot of cymbals that don’t get used . I found that out weeks ago when I had to empty the closet . Started opening up boxes and forgot about some of them that were there for a long time . It was on the other hand a pleasant surprise . Found my 60’s 14” ‘s , 22” , 16” and 18” A’s that I started out with as a very young lad . But yeah , I would think laying them flat gives ultimate longevity minus the inconvenience .
 
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