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Well, now I've seen everything

JimmyM

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Just saw a couple links to it with a Google search. Wasn’t a fan, but it does exist and looks like that one.
 

Seb77

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Didn't you search for a rideable 16" on cymbalholic at some point?
I remember someone mentioning Art Pepper+Eleven. I recently listened to this again, and it dawned on me "It's just a crash cymbal he's riding on! it's just his playing that makes you believe it's a ride". Any thoughts on that?
 

K.O.

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I bought a 16" A that was factory stamped as a "crash-ride" about 3-4 years ago. I bought it from Mike Layton at the Chicago show. He was always finding unique cymbals. Coincidentally I also brought home a 28" Zildjian from the same show...my biggest and smallest Ride cymbals.
 

bassanddrum84

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28” ride? Holy cow how’s the wash on it?
I bought a 16" A that was factory stamped as a "crash-ride" about 3-4 years ago. I bought it from Mike Layton at the Chicago show. He was always finding unique cymbals. Coincidentally I also brought home a 28" Zildjian from the same show...my biggest and smallest Ride cymbals.
 

egw

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Didn't you search for a rideable 16" on cymbalholic at some point?
I remember someone mentioning Art Pepper+Eleven. I recently listened to this again, and it dawned on me "It's just a crash cymbal he's riding on! it's just his playing that makes you believe it's a ride". Any thoughts on that?
Wow Seb, you have quite the memory! I don't remember that, but at one point I was getting pretty obsessive over those cymbals of Mel's on AP+11, so it's entirely possible.

I think that K he used pre-dates crash vs ride designation, and it was just "a K".
 

egw

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I bought a 16" A that was factory stamped as a "crash-ride" about 3-4 years ago. I bought it from Mike Layton at the Chicago show. He was always finding unique cymbals. Coincidentally I also brought home a 28" Zildjian from the same show...my biggest and smallest Ride cymbals.
You know, I also have a 16" A labeled "crash-ride", but as far as I can tell, it's identical to a medium-thin crash.
 

KCJazz

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I bought a 16" A that was factory stamped as a "crash-ride" about 3-4 years ago. I bought it from Mike Layton at the Chicago show. He was always finding unique cymbals. Coincidentally I also brought home a 28" Zildjian from the same show...my biggest and smallest Ride cymbals.
Do cymbals get mislabeled?
 

zenstat

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Do cymbals get mislabeled?

Very occasionally, but in order to work out that a single cymbal might be mislabeled you need a lot of context. The context includes: production era, diameter, bell size, weight class information, and possibly additional information.

For example, in the case of 16" Crash Ride I can pull up other examples for comparison. This includes hundreds of 16" A Zildjian cymbals to get a general idea of the weight distribution, and then examples which still have model ink.

First up is this thread with some discussion after @K.O. posted it first time around


in my database I made a note that I'd like to get the weight, see a closeup of the model ink, and also the trademark stamp. That will help give us a bit more detail. I've also got that one as having ink saying Crash Ride as well as Medium Thin. Medium Thin is a weight class designation and was a separate ink stamp until say late 60s or early 70s.

I've got a few other 16" A Zildjians which range in weight from 1044g to 1275g. They have ink saying just RIDE (1275g) and other things like MEDIUM RIDE (1260g, 1267g) or CRASH RIDE (1112g) or THIN RIDE (1044g) or just MEDIUM (1260g, 1274g) or MEDIUM BOUNCE (1134g). Here is the MEDIUM BOUNCE ink which is in two separate ink stamps. MEDIUM for weight class. BOUNCE which is a synonym for RIDE back when this cymbal was produced (late 1950s). There may have been a distinction between RIDE and BOUNCE in terms of the build, but we haven't got that far in reconstructing extinct models yet.

16-1134-ink.jpg


And here is CRASH RIDE ink from the 1978-1982 period on a 16" cymbal. Since I'm lacking the weight I can't tell if this is the same cymbal from @K.O. but I don't think so because the image goes back to 2015.

16-crash-ride-ink.jpg


Plus the cymbal K.O. reported had the additional weight class ink MEDIUM THIN. the CRASH RIDE does look to be the same ink stamp style.


16-crash-ride-med-thin.jpg



I go through all the old catalogs and price lists I can lay hands on to look at years of availability for different cymbals. And I'm always on the lookout for pictures of older cymbals which have some model or weight class ink still there. Only a few percent of the old As have remaining ink. I'm still collating the data for the wiki, and to calibrate the reconstructed weight classes for all the different diameters.

I miss Mike too!

ps thanks to the question from @egw I now have two more database records of these early K family CUSTOM cymbals in 16". These early K family CUSTOM cymbals are described on my site


but you have to know where to look. Hopefully those doing Google searches stumbled onto that page.
 
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shuffle

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You know, I also have a 16" A labeled "crash-ride", but as far as I can tell, it's identical to a medium-thin crash.
I've got an 80s Sabian 16 C/R,very close to a med thin and it's got a decent ride, it works great as both!
 

zenstat

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I've got an 80s Sabian 16 C/R,very close to a med thin and it's got a decent ride, it works great as both!
You know, I also have a 16" A labeled "crash-ride", but as far as I can tell, it's identical to a medium-thin crash.

We've had this discussion before but about the 18" diameter. Zidljian say that the 18" Crash Ride and the Medium Thin Crash have the same specs. In some older catalog information Zildjian mention that the the weight class for Crash Rides is Medium Thin. Sabian would probably be the same, especially in the early days. But I hadn't previous heard specifically about 16" diameter Crash Ride and Medium Thin Crash.

Got a weight for the 16" A crash ride? Ditto for the Sabian crash ride. And what era are we talking about for the A crash ride? In the case of Sabian are we talking AA series or HH series?

The bell used on 16" A Zildjian cymbals is almost always the Small Cup. There is the very occasional smaller bell: MiniCup (on the Swish) and a seldom seen MiniCup Crash model.

16-mcc-top.JPG


16-mcc-bot.JPG


This cymbal is part of a whole family of Mini Cup cymbals. Most people only know about the Mini Cup Rides. The ink on the underside above the bell is the ink used for international distribution and it has the diameter in both inches and cm, plus the upper portion of the Avedis Zildjian logo.

16-mcc-ink2.JPG


There is the very occasional larger bell: seems like the Medium Cup on the 16" Rock Crash.

16-1340-bot.jpg


16-1340-top.jpg


On some 16" A Zildjian & Cie cymbals from the 1970s there seems to be a 4.5" diameter bell on a cymbal which is a more hefty 1543g.


16-1543-bot.jpg


16-1543-top.jpg


16-1543-stamp.jpg


Once again this is a work in progress and the evidence is emerging of a different bell which sits in between the Small and Medium cups in size. I call it a Medium Small for now. And there is another bell which is just a bit bigger than the Small Cup. Most people don't know of the variation in bells and how this relates to models. I'm still working to put it together as part of a history of all models. But if you have some unusual combination of attributes on an A Zildjian cymbal and you want to know what it is just ask. I might have it in my database. :cool:
 

egw

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We've had this discussion before but about the 18" diameter. Zidljian say that the 18" Crash Ride and the Medium Thin Crash have the same specs. In some older catalog information Zildjian mention that the the weight class for Crash Rides is Medium Thin. Sabian would probably be the same, especially in the early days. But I hadn't previous heard specifically about 16" diameter Crash Ride and Medium Thin Crash.

Got a weight for the 16" A crash ride? Ditto for the Sabian crash ride. And what era are we talking about for the A crash ride? In the case of Sabian are we talking AA series or HH series?

The bell used on 16" A Zildjian cymbals is almost always the Small Cup. There is the very occasional smaller bell: MiniCup (on the Swish) and a seldom seen MiniCup Crash model.

View attachment 593428

View attachment 593429

This cymbal is part of a whole family of Mini Cup cymbals. Most people only know about the Mini Cup Rides. The ink on the underside above the bell is the ink used for international distribution and it has the diameter in both inches and cm, plus the upper portion of the Avedis Zildjian logo.

View attachment 593430

There is the very occasional larger bell: seems like the Medium Cup on the 16" Rock Crash.

View attachment 593423

View attachment 593424

On some 16" A Zildjian & Cie cymbals from the 1970s there seems to be a 4.5" diameter bell on a cymbal which is a more hefty 1543g.


View attachment 593425

View attachment 593426

View attachment 593427

Once again this is a work in progress and the evidence is emerging of a different bell which sits in between the Small and Medium cups in size. I call it a Medium Small for now. And there is another bell which is just a bit bigger than the Small Cup. Most people don't know of the variation in bells and how this relates to models. I'm still working to put it together as part of a history of all models. But if you have some unusual combination of attributes on an A Zildjian cymbal and you want to know what it is just ask. I might have it in my database. :cool:
Steve, I can get you the weight and some pics of the 16“ A sometime next week. I'm in the middle of a move at the moment and my cymbals are at the other house.

Re these "crash ride" cymbals that are just other models with a different label. It seems that most of the examples we see are from the era before Zildjian and Sabian offered budget level cymbals. I wonder if that was just their marketing plan to appeal to the beginner market? One cymbal that could do both jobs.
 

zenstat

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Steve, I can get you the weight and some pics of the 16“ A sometime next week. I'm in the middle of a move at the moment and my cymbals are at the other house.

Re these "crash ride" cymbals that are just other models with a different label. It seems that most of the examples we see are from the era before Zildjian and Sabian offered budget level cymbals. I wonder if that was just their marketing plan to appeal to the beginner market? One cymbal that could do both jobs.

Thanks. No hurry. As you know I'm slow but thorough. :cool:

There were budget cymbals offered starting in the 1930s with Zenjian and Alejian and Zilco.


But yes, the marking literature and background info from Zildjian does mention the Crash Ride model being for people who were just getting started and wanted to use just a pair of hats and one cymbal. I've had a preliminary look at the CRASH designation


but I haven't yet done a similar review for CRASH RIDE as a designation to give a full history of when and where it appeared. I do know that the weight class was MEDIUM THIN for a CRASH RIDE. The CRASH RIDE model stayed in the mix decades after other beginner and intermediate series were introduced. Here is one for sale on DFO today

 
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healthie1

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I talked to a drum shop owner who got Sabian to make him a custom 15" ride when they did that thing where they toured around making cymbals. I didn't get to see it, but he told me it had a power bell bell.
 

zenstat

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I can dig out my 16" "crash-ride" and weigh it. Not sure where it is off the top of my head (I have a bunch of cymbals).

It might be a day or two though. I hit a deer with my car last night so DFO doin's are taking a back seat at the moment.

Take your time -- no hurry. But while we are on the subject I'd love to have more details on your 28" as well. I don't know if you have a way to weigh a cymbal that big. But it would be great to have the weight and the other details list trademark stamp and images which will let me assess production era independent of the trademark. There is a theory that larger diameter cymbals sit around in the vaults more often than 22" and smaller diameter ones. The trademark goes on when the cymbal is chosen to fill an order. So the not yet properly tested prediction is that larger cymbals will have a larger proportion of "older" cymbals with "later" trademarks.
 

zenstat

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Just a bit more on the origin story of Crash Rides from Zildjian themselves

Screen Shot 2022-11-21 at 1.30.30 PM.png

From here:


And an historical example relating weight classes and type/models from 1970

1970-weight-table.jpg
 


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