What’s your favorite Nefertiti Clone?

[JazzDrumGuy]

So is the Mehmet TW ride in the hat/crash/ride pack modeled on the N. ride?

 

[curly]

Yes it does look like that to me as well. I that is part of the lore. I haven't had hands on one of the Mehmet clones but if it was more faithful on profile than weight it might show the downwards flange. Anybody have the set who can look for us? I may have saved multiple sets of photos for the sets for sale, but I'm not sure. I can't save everything because there is too much everything.

Closest to a full profile I could find with a non-exhaustive search

 

[curly]

There is no clone of that cymbal, even the ones that claim to be clones. If a manufacturer was able to mass produce that sound, we'd all know about it, and people wouldn't be eternally hunting for it.

There are lots of individual cymbals that can get a little bit of that vibe, played the right way, under the right set of circumstances. I had a 22" Bosphorus Turk that sounded like that, from the playing position, anyway-- my 22" Cymbal & Gong Holy Grail sounds like it sometimes, other HGs sound like a different take on it. I also have a 20" Agop Turk that's sort of like it. None of them are anything like the original cymbal (or each other) in weight or design.

More generally, cloning cymbals is incredibly hard to do. Getting the sound, feel, dynamic etc exactly the same is almost impossible in my opinion, even for the most talented cymbalsmith. Perhaps with the cymbal in hand and some real alchemy someone maybe could pull it off. I very much agree that some cymbals can get that the vibe, played the right way, etc. And that's the point right? It's a sound and a vibe, not a cymbal. The sound is Tony with that particular cymbal, with whatever sticks he was using, as it was recorded at the Columbia studio.

After thinking about this today (cymbalholic brain gonna cymbalholic), I remember Roberto's TWs and some of those early TW Agops having a downward edge flange. Which then led me to think about another 22" Funch I have, which Lasse based off a Spizz TW. To me it strikes some notes that make me think of the Nefertiti sound.

 

[dingaling]

Thanks Zen!

Wish we could see that cymbals profile. Looks like there might be a pronounced downwards flange distal to the rivet holes.

I have a spizz TW 22”, only owner since 2002, and there is a pronounced flanged edge about 1.5 inches from the rim. I think Roberto must have seen the original.

It’s an amazing sounding cymbal although the crash is a bit harsh and not Nefertiti dragons breath.

I only own about 10 nice ride cymbals so I’m sure there are better experts then I.

 

[dingaling]

Here is a sample of the Spizz TW and to compare on the left is a Funch old K clone which he added a flanged edge so both cymbal have them.

This was recorded with an iPhone so not the highest quality.

 

[zenstat]

So is the Mehmet TW ride in the hat/crash/ride pack modeled on the N. ride?

That's the lore as far as I know. I've got the original advertising guff stored in case we need to refer to it. All of these sorts of things (Tony Williams Cymbals, Mel Lewis Cymbals, Joe Morello Cymbals, etc) are destined to be in a section of the wiki with cross links to all the companies and individuals who make clones. At least that's part of the design.

 

[jmoll]

Since you asked nicely, the original is an Intermediate Stamp K Zildjian Istanbul, and Paul Francis weighted it and said "just under 6 lbs" and I make that 2720g and have stored it as 2700g in roundish sort of number for "just under". Here is Paul with Wallace Roney and Vince Wilburn (Tony's nephew) with the cymbal.


View attachment 594294

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The trademark image isn't that clear but if you know what to look for it is an Intermediate Stamp. The stamp is half way out from bell to bow which fits Intermediate Stamp positioning, and Nefertiti was recorded in June and July 1967 which also fits. Of course, if you know what lathing style and bell style to look for, those attributes are consistent with the Intermediate Stamp era.

The weight comes from an interview Timothy Roberts did with Paul and he mentions it at 2 hrs 18 minutes in. That is followed by a great Louie Bellson story when he was playing a ... but I won't spoil your listening.

I think the cymbal that Mehmet replicated wasn't this one. In the pictures of the Mehmet adds and the one with Tony's widow and all the Mehmet staff with the original Tony's set, the 22" shown is the one that's broken. Maybe the one that Tony used on "Four and More"?
I don't know, but for what I've read and found over the years, he didn't used only one 22" during the 60's. At least, the broken one and that Intermediate stamp.

 

[PPF]

Interesting thread!! I‘ve got a couple of questions to all of you guys who own one of those complex TW clones - do you gig with them?
If yes, how does it feel to play that cymbal with a piano? Doesn’t it interfere with the frequencies of that instrument?

I‘m just curious what your experiences are! I can only imagine it being very hard to play in an acoustic setting

 

[zenstat]

I think the cymbal that Mehmet replicated wasn't this one. In the pictures of the Mehmet adds and the one with Tony's widow and all the Mehmet staff with the original Tony's set, the 22" shown is the one that's broken. Maybe the one that Tony used on "Four and More"?
I don't know, but for what I've read and found over the years, he didn't used only one 22" during the 60's. At least, the broken one and that Intermediate stamp.

Thanks for the correction Joan. It's been ages since I reviewed this stuff. Definitely not the same cymbal as the Nefertiti in that Tony Tribute Set. Here is a picture of the Tony Tribute Set

You can see the nibbles out of the 22", not the same cymbal. This explains why the Tony Tribute 22" is in a lower weight class that the Nefertiti Ride and no downwards flange at the edge. Note there is a crack in the 18" which gets a mention in the sales literature below. I've looked at many photos of the tribute sets and I don't see the crack in the tribute 18" although it gets mentioned:

Created as faithful replicas of the now iconic cymbals made famous by Tony Williams on the recordings of the 60s era Miles Davis Quintet.

When Miles Davis invited the 17-year-old Tony Williams to join his new Quintet, jazz drumming would never be the same. Tony set a new standard with his playing and cymbals. The Istanbul Mehmet Company was granted exclusive access to the very same cymbals, made in Istanbul in the late 50s, which were used by Tony Williams on the Miles Davis Quintet's historic recordings.

Hand-carried to Istanbul by Colleen Williams, Tony's wife, great attention to detail was paid during their creation, with every aspect of the cymbals being scrupulously measured, weighed, gauged and factored to ensure that the new, handmade cymbals be as close in sound as possible to the originals. Istanbul Mehmet drew from their rich archives the original and now antique cup dies, the actual dies used to form the bells on the originals, and used them in order to perfectly recreate the bell shapes on the tribute models.

The set consists of a 22" ride with legendary dry, clean stick articulation and orchestral, dark overtones. The 14" hi-hats produce a gorgeous "chick" sound and sublime, signature stick articulation. An 18" crash delivers warm, fast attack and features a signature crack that acts as a built-in "attenuator" to accelerate decay.

And here is Colleen Williams at the Mehmet factory.

and the sales picture:

 

[JimmyM]

Fun thread that makes me very happy to not worry about things like this. In my hands, they all might as well be my SR2 ride

 

[Seb77]

Here's a snippet off of the original Nefertiti recording compared to one of two Agops, made in 2018 using a Zoom H2.
While not identical, the Agop TW to my ear has that combination of a high "tee" sound with a lower "tah" underneath (it has an outer downward flange I attribute this to). The Mel at the end of the audio doesn't have the same "tah" broadness, it's also quite a bit lighter, but to my ear it has a similar overtone.

https://soundcloud.com/seb234%2Fnefertiti-agops

That high "tee" overtone I only seemed to get using sticks that had that high sound in them (high wood pitch). Other Tony recordings have a slightly lower sound, think "Fall" of the same record. To my ear, I would get closer to that sound using lower-sounding sticks.

 

[ThomasL]

Thanks for the correction Joan. It's been ages since I reviewed this stuff. Definitely not the same cymbal as the Nefertiti in that Tony Tribute Set. Here is a picture of the Tony Tribute Set

View attachment 594473

You can see the nibbles out of the 22", not the same cymbal. This explains why the Tony Tribute 22" is in a lower weight class that the Nefertiti Ride. Note there is a crack in the 18" which gets a mention in the sales literature below. I've looked at many photos of the tribute sets and I don't see the crack in the tribute 18" although it gets mentioned:



And here is Colleen Williams at the Mehmet factory.


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and the sales picture:

View attachment 594475

Did they have permission to use that pic? It's from a Gretsch ad.

 

[Tarkus]

...

May I ask if these two videos show the exact same Funch cymbal at 2300g?

 

[curly]

May I ask if these two videos show the exact same Funch cymbal at 2300g?

Yes. The first is Lasse's video and the second is my iphone video.

 

[Tarkus]

Thank you for letting me know.

Honestly these two videos are like day and night to me (and I have to admit, yours is not the 'day').

Another lesson to me on being careful about videos/soundfiles of cymbals.

 

["poppies"]

Hazelshould has an Old K on Instagram just recently posted that is coincidentally one of the closest Nefertiti sounds I've heard.

 

[ThomasL]

Interesting thread!! I‘ve got a couple of questions to all of you guys who own one of those complex TW clones - do you gig with them?
If yes, how does it feel to play that cymbal with a piano? Doesn’t it interfere with the frequencies of that instrument?

I‘m just curious what your experiences are! I can only imagine it being very hard to play in an acoustic setting

Good question. I had this Johan Nefertiti ride (1st one in the comparison):

It worked well behind tenor and electric guitar, but I usually played the LSR behind piano solos. I also found the high-end trash, which might be more of a Johan thing than a Nefertiti thing, problematic behind vocalists (not that I did that a lot). Eventually I sold the cymbal and have now been using the BSC (4th one in the video) for many years.

 

[curly]

Thank you for letting me know.

Honestly these two videos are like day and night to me (and I have to admit, yours is not the 'day').

Another lesson to me on being careful about videos/soundfiles of cymbals.

Yup gotta be careful. The reality is that the cymbal is between Lasse's video and mine. I've gotten so used to iphone vidoes that I consider them a rough guide that can accentuate some of the less pleasant characteristics while still giving a general idea. As always, ymmv.

 

[jtpaistegeist]

I helped design that model with Agop (seriously)

That's awesome Ptrick. I recently acquired a new 22" SE Fusion Ride 2644g that I am in love with. I use it with my Paiste Masters rides/crashes and it blends beautifully. It exhibits many of the TW qualities, nice tah, dragons breath, smooth crash and shoulder sticking. It knocks my Paiste Traditional Light 22" off the stand often lol! I about to add some Agop hats, and probably a couple of 20's, just can't decide on what.

 

[jtpaistegeist]