What’s your favorite Nefertiti Clone?

[zenstat]

Item: Istanbul Agop 22" Special Edition Fusion Ride

Weight:
2645 grams

Description: The Special Edition Fusion ride has its roots in a collaboration with the online Cymbalholic community, over ten years ago. All along the way, Istanbul Agop has offered a version of this cymbal as an “off-menu” item. Due to ongoing and increasing demand from players everywhere they are now offering it as an official model, with some improvements to the bell size/shape and weight for better projection and articulation.

This cymbal has been played in a video demonstration and does have some minor stick marks and fingerprints. The Istanbul Agop one year warranty will apply.

Cymbalholic gets a mention.

and here is one which is 1 gram different so we can talk about consistency: of playing, of recording, of cymbals

or did I post the same one twice?

 

[Esotericdrums]

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I’m curious the differences between the SE fusion and SE Jazz… I recently got my first Agop a 22 SE Jazz TW and it is an absolute killer ride, instantly fell in love. It’s got a higher profile with the edge flange and medium weight 25xxg, dry, nice tah sound and complex wash, great shoulder shanks.

It’s the closest thing I have to a Nefertiti style ride

 

[AtlantaDrumGuy]

My old K 22. Lol. There is no clone. And that’s okay though….

 

[jtpaistegeist]

I’m curious the differences between the SE fusion and SE Jazz… I recently got my first Agop a 22 SE Jazz TW and it is an absolute killer ride, instantly fell in love. It’s got a higher profile with the edge flange and medium weight 25xxg, dry, nice tah sound and complex wash, great shoulder shanks.

It’s the closest thing I have to a Nefertiti style ride

From what I can tell, the Fusion is much lower profile/pitch, but heavier in weight by ~350g. The profile of the Fusion is quite low, with a very slight edge flange. The fine top outer edge lathing really opens this one up for crashes and shoulder sticking. The crash on mine is nice and low, as is the general vibe. The bell is crisp, and medium pitched for a 22.

 

[jtpaistegeist]

Item: Istanbul Agop 22" Special Edition Fusion Ride

Weight:
2645 grams

Description: The Special Edition Fusion ride has its roots in a collaboration with the online Cymbalholic community, over ten years ago. All along the way, Istanbul Agop has offered a version of this cymbal as an “off-menu” item. Due to ongoing and increasing demand from players everywhere they are now offering it as an official model, with some improvements to the bell size/shape and weight for better projection and articulation.

This cymbal has been played in a video demonstration and does have some minor stick marks and fingerprints. The Istanbul Agop one year warranty will apply.

Cymbalholic gets a mention.

and here is one which is 1 gram different so we can talk about consistency: of playing, of recording, of cymbals

or did I post the same one twice?

Zen.. That's actually the one I have (2644g)! That video sold me.

 

[Ptrick]

That's awesome Ptrick. I recently acquired a new 22" SE Fusion Ride 2644g that I am in love with. I use it with my Paiste Masters rides/crashes and it blends beautifully. It exhibits many of the TW qualities, nice tah, dragons breath, smooth crash and shoulder sticking. It knocks my Paiste Traditional Light 22" off the stand often lol! I about to add some Agop hats, and probably a couple of 20's, just can't decide on what.

That model was a variation of the Agop TW’s, made into an actual line (the TW’s were always an “off menu “ item). They made the bell a bit bigger and beefier.

 

[Seb77]

Interesting thread!! I‘ve got a couple of questions to all of you guys who own one of those complex TW clones - do you gig with them?
If yes, how does it feel to play that cymbal with a piano? Doesn’t it interfere with the frequencies of that instrument?

I‘m just curious what your experiences are! I can only imagine it being very hard to play in an acoustic setting

I might take the Agop TW from my clip above to a local jam next week, might as well record it with the Zoom as well. Granted, I haven't played that cymbal that much, but whenever I did, it was fine. It's not like a China or Swish knocker that you would only use behind certain instruments. Reason might be masking of frequencies by the other instruments (as opposed to a cymbal covering other instruments' sound).
Whenever I got to listen to my own cymbals out front at such occasions, they sounded cleaner, simpler, straighter than I expected. To get some trash in the sound out to the audience, I had to use a cymbal that sounded rather obnoxious (to me, at first) from behind the set. Same goes for low pitch, or sizzle, or washiness - what at first felt rather extreme from the driver's seat, sounded just right from the audience side (reminds me of singing in choir: it first felt like exaggerating things to bring them across).

 

[james_c_marks]

Here's a snippet off of the original Nefertiti recording compared to one of two Agops, made in 2018 using a Zoom H2.
While not identical, the Agop TW to my ear has that combination of a high "tee" sound with a lower "tah" underneath (it has an outer downward flange I attribute this to). The Mel at the end of the audio doesn't have the same "tah" broadness, it's also quite a bit lighter, but to my ear it has a similar overtone.

https://soundcloud.com/seb234%2Fnefertiti-agops

That high "tee" overtone I only seemed to get using sticks that had that high sound in them (high wood pitch). Other Tony recordings have a slightly lower sound, think "Fall" of the same record. To my ear, I would get closer to that sound using lower-sounding sticks.

Seb you get the Grand Champion Blue Ribbon award for comparative presentation.

I do wonder however if the higher pitch we hear of the original Nefertiti in your example is actually the 18” being hit at the same time…

 

[Seb77]

Seb you get the Grand Champion Blue Ribbon award for comparative presentation.

I do wonder however if the higher pitch we hear of the original Nefertiti in your example is actually the 18” being hit at the same time…

Thanks!
For the above snippet, I chopped up the one stereo track the drums are in quite badly, to get the least horns or piano in here, and I also tried to avoid the 18" cymbal. Below is a slightly longer version with some hits of the 18" still in, which sounds quite different. What I think is happening is TW played very hard at times with a limiter kicking in, which makes the hard crashes on the 22" sound like a thinner cymbal.

https://soundcloud.com/seb234%2Fnefertiti-cymbals-edit

 

[toddbishop]

I mean hell, this random 20" Holy Grail sounds as close as anything here-- in the right set of circumstances. Demonstrated by my friend Michael @Griener in Berlin.

That was my cymbal, and I sold it to Michael, and he sold it to a drummer in Dresden, and then got it back, and now he's going to trade it back to me.

 

[DB-66]

I’m going to reference this thread here as there’s relevant content: https://www.drumforum.org/threads/tony-williams-miles-era-cymbal.199165/

 

[DB-66]

My personal belief is that the ride Tony used was probably an older new stamp in the mid-2600g range. That’s mostly based on information that’s been discussed in this thread already and the thread I posted above.

Two factors that often get overlooked when searching for a clone is the studio and the music itself.

Starting with the latter, the introspective and moody composition that is Nefertiti hooked me before the sound of the ride ever became a personal obsession. And given that Tony is given the lead, my love of the tune itself became an obsession. For me, his dynamics and the phrases that span all of his cymbals all contribute to the mystique of the 22. Side note: yes, I know Nefertiti is also the album title and not just the tune, but his performance on the tune seems to get most of the attention.

As for the studio, look at this place:

Sound on Sound discussed a separate session here:https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/miles-davis-round-midnight-classic-tracks

These sessions used different engineers, but there was apparently a manual Columbia used for sessions in the live room and one can imagine there being similarities between what is discussed and the Nefertiti sessions.

"There would be a microphone on the bass drum, another on the hi‑hat, one on the snare and then another mic for the overhead, catching everything, including the cymbals. I'd then put a bag filled with sand inside the bass drum, primarily so that, when the drummer kicked that thing, it wouldn't go all over the room on the wooden floor. It also kept the sound right there, because at 30th Street you could hear the bass drum all over the studio, and so [the bag of sand] made sure it wasn't overbearing.”

Listen to the drums on Nefertiti - especially the snare. It strikes me as being mid-heavy with a ton of room in the mix. The engineer on Nefertiti - Fred Plaut - was also known to record the likes of Glenn Gould.

I think the 22 would sound much different under a different mic, in a different room, and played by someone else. I think it would sound higher pitched than many clones target, and perhaps be cleaner than many dragons breath cymbals I personally love.

I have an early new stamp that is in the ballpark of what I think his would weigh but it doesn’t sound like the recording. I also have a Spizz TW.

I have another new stamp that is slightly over 2400g that gets closer to the recorded sound. Another cymbal that should be mentioned as a possible clone is the Paiste Masters dark ride. It is roughly the same weight and with the same edge flange (for control and dragons breath) as my new stamp.

One final thought: the five note groupings Tony often played are much easier to play on a medium weight cymbal than something several hundred grams lighter.

 

[DB-66]

I mean hell, this random 20" Holy Grail sounds as close as anything here-- in the right set of circumstances. Demonstrated by my friend Michael @Griener in Berlin.

That was my cymbal, and I sold it to Michael, and he sold it to a drummer in Dresden, and then got it back, and now he's going to trade it back to me.

That is a beautiful sounding cymbal.

 

[Griener]

That is a beautiful sounding cymbal.

if I had known @toddbishop was going to post this in context; I would have pulled out my one or two Tony licks.
I can only recommend anyone looking for a Nefertiti cymbal to check out Cymbal & Gong, especially Todd's www.cymbalistic.com
I don't know of any other company that reliably makes cymbals this good, that sound so great, and at this price.
And just like Todd says, the Holy Grail on the video is not even an exceptional cymbal for me, but actually standard for C&G.
That's why I sold it on and got it back for Todd. I think he's more attached to it for sentimental reasons; there are so many great cymbals in the new shipment he has on his website alone that I don't quite understand why he would want this one back.
But I'm happy to send it to him; after all, I got all my current cymbals through him.
And I am very happy with them..

 

[Skeet6]

Since you asked nicely, the original is an Intermediate Stamp K Zildjian Istanbul, and Paul Francis weighted it and said "just under 6 lbs" and I make that 2720g and have stored it as 2700g in roundish sort of number for "just under". Here is Paul with Wallace Roney and Vince Wilburn (Tony's nephew) with the cymbal.

Vince Wilburn is Miles Davis' nephew.

Mike B

 

[s1212z]

Since you asked nicely, the original is an Intermediate Stamp K Zildjian Istanbul, and Paul Francis weighted it and said "just under 6 lbs" and I make that 2720g and have stored it as 2700g in roundish sort of number for "just under". Here is Paul with Wallace Roney and Vince Wilburn (Tony's nephew) with the cymbal.


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The trademark image isn't that clear but if you know what to look for it is an Intermediate Stamp. The stamp is half way out from bell to bow which fits Intermediate Stamp positioning, and Nefertiti was recorded in June and July 1967 which also fits. Of course, if you know what lathing style and bell style to look for, those attributes are consistent with the Intermediate Stamp era.

The weight comes from an interview Timothy Roberts did with Paul and he mentions it at 2 hrs 18 minutes in. That is followed by a great Louie Bellson story when he was playing a ... but I won't spoil your listening.

Curious if you knew more because I recall this interview Wallace Roney gave to MD in 99'

"Tony's ride cymbals were not thin; they were all medium-heavy. I would venture to say that the one he played on Four And More was heavier than medium-heavy. I mean, you always have to worry about articulating anyway, but I could definitely hear the stick—not just stick, but beautiful warm overtones underneath. Lenny thinks the one I loaned him is the one on Nefertiti—it looks like that one on a video, with rivet holes—and it's medium-heavy too."

Sounds like it's definitely TW ride, but seems to me there is a significant difference between 'this is the Nefertiti ride' vs 'Lenny White thinks this is the Nefertiti ride'....do you know if this got verified further or more likely given all the information, this is the scenario all the accounts. I imagine this ride is particularly sought after too, more so than others, so I imagine quite a different appraisal.

 

[zenstat]

Vince Wilburn is Miles Davis' nephew.

Mike B

Thanks. The text I posted before came from somebody else and is indicative of the level of confusion about these matters. I don't do genealogy of my own family, let alone anybody else's. I'll annotate this in my notes on the photo.

Curious if you knew more because I recall this interview Wallace Roney gave to MD in 99'

"Tony's ride cymbals were not thin; they were all medium-heavy. I would venture to say that the one he played on Four And More was heavier than medium-heavy. I mean, you always have to worry about articulating anyway, but I could definitely hear the stick—not just stick, but beautiful warm overtones underneath. Lenny thinks the one I loaned him is the one on Nefertiti—it looks like that one on a video, with rivet holes—and it's medium-heavy too."

Sounds like it's definitely TW ride, but seems to me there is a significant difference between 'this is the Nefertiti ride' vs 'Lenny White thinks this is the Nefertiti ride'....do you know if this got verified further or more likely given all the information, this is the scenario all the accounts. I imagine this ride is particularly sought after too, more so than others, so I imagine quite a different appraisal.

Thanks. The level of uncertainty continues in your quoted text. In addition to which ride of two or more "Tony Williams 60s Rides" was used on Nefertiti and went to who, we have the added uncertainty of using undefined weight class terms to talk about an actual weight. I use these weight class ranges for 22" cymbals (in grams)

Ex. Thin < 1900
Paper Thin 1900 - 2100
Thin 2100 -2300 << weights of the Mehmet Clones of a 60s Tony Ride are here clustered around 2240g - 2285g
Medium Thin 2300 - 2500
Medium 2500- 2800 << reported Nefertiti ride via Paul Francis around 2700g; the new Jazz Rock Mehmet clone
Medium Heavy 2800 - 3100
Heavy 3100 - 3500
Ex. Heavy > 3500

but I don't know what words anybody else uses unless they tell me. That's why I prefer actual weights for clear communication. If you want to use words, it seems best to present them using an agreed range. These weight ranges for 22" come from LuvMyLeedy on Cymbalholic years ago.

As an aside: there are few sites which present weight ranges for other diameters using a simple ratio of areas method. That method was also shown to be unsatisfactory some years ago on Cymbalholic, and it gets worse the further away you go from 22". A number of us switched to using the allometric scaling method from ThomasL years ago but it hasn't caught on. This is a graph comparing scaling methods.

For small cymbals the area method gives weights which are too high. For 14" high hats we're talking several hundred grams out. For diameters greater than 22" the ratio of areas method gives weights which are way too low.

This next graph is starting to add in real data on real cymbals which have weight class or model ink on them saying Medium, plus upper (red) and lower (green) confidence limits on weight range.

So far it seems that the allometric model is better than ratio of areas, but the allometric model is having trouble once we get to 24" and larger. I took a break at this point to collect more data for a few years and haven't continued yet. Finding larger cymbals with weight class ink on them is an uncommon event.

All of which is off topic in terms of knowing more about the Nefertiti ride and how people like various clones. Carry on and I'll just go back to computing.

 

[paulwells73]

Curious if you knew more because I recall this interview Wallace Roney gave to MD in 99'

"Tony's ride cymbals were not thin; they were all medium-heavy. I would venture to say that the one he played on Four And More was heavier than medium-heavy. I mean, you always have to worry about articulating anyway, but I could definitely hear the stick—not just stick, but beautiful warm overtones underneath. Lenny thinks the one I loaned him is the one on Nefertiti—it looks like that one on a video, with rivet holes—and it's medium-heavy too."

Sounds like it's definitely TW ride, but seems to me there is a significant difference between 'this is the Nefertiti ride' vs 'Lenny White thinks this is the Nefertiti ride'....do you know if this got verified further or more likely given all the information, this is the scenario all the accounts. I imagine this ride is particularly sought after too, more so than others, so I imagine quite a different appraisal.

As far as I know, the only "verification" that was ever done was Wallace saying that:

"Lenny thinks the one I loaned him is the one on Nefertiti—it looks like that one on a video, with rivet holes—and it's medium-heavy too."

There are only three known videos on Tony playing with Miles - Sept 64 on the Steve Allen Show, Oct 1967 in Stockholm, and Nov 1967 in Karlsruhe, Germany. The only video where he's playing a cymbal with rivets is the Stockholm show in 1967. However, it's now well documented that Tony DID NOT bring his own drums or cymbals on the 1967 tour of Europe, and he's likely using Don Lamond's drums and cymbals on the Stockholm show. There are photos and video of other acts playing Stockholm that day (Miles and the quintet were part of a multi-band festival bill) and they're all playing those drums and cymbals. Most importantly, if you look closely at the Stockholm video, Tony is quite clearly playing a A Zildjian with rivets, NOT a K. Again, there is no other video footage showing Tony playing a riveted cymbal. Maybe Lenny has seen something that hasn't been released to the public? (i kinda doubt it.)

I don't doubt that the cymbal in question belonged to Tony, but the detective work on Wallace and Lenny's part is flawed. It may be the Nefertiti cymbal, but there's no proof.

Here's the Stockholm video for reference:

 

[s1212z]

@zenstat, as always I love the data and history you get the share here, grateful someone goes into these depths to document the history.

@paulwells73, that sounds right...I think we was play a Premier on some of videos. Yeah, who knows what Lenny saw.

Can't link the article but the rest of the quote in the article is quite brow raising:

"In 1992, Tony gave Wallace his canary yellow drumset. What happened next is a drummer's dream: "He opens up this huge crate about six feet long and three feet wide. It's full of brandnew, never used old Ks from the '40s and '50s. My heart stopped. He's laughing, saying, 'Go ahead, pick a set.' I started feeling guilty; I didn't want to take his cymbals. Right at the end of the crate were the older old Ks. I felt better about taking them because they were retired, and he wouldn't miss these as much as the ones he hadn't got to yet. I picked up three ride cymbals, two sock cymbals—a very thin 15" pair and a 14" pair—and a 20" and an 18". The ones I liked best were the three 22" rides, and he let me take them".

Would great to know what the other two 22" used/retired weights and class were. There was also mention outside this quote in reference to the Four and More and few others, on how small the bells were, with mini-cup references...thought that was interesting as well.


Also some side tidbits on the sticks, I think this was a separate Wallace Roney interview, but talks about the Max Roach model which became the 5D...4th from the top in this photo, which look accurate to other photos...never seen one in real life.

Then there is the tipless, which I think I've seen in some of the European footage which would be before 71' for sure so a bit of mystery there unless experimenting with the stick prior.

Gretsch Tony Williams Mystery Stick!

From the Bopworks Vault: The Tony WIlliams Gretsch 5A Tipless model sticks!!?Circa early 70's is a best guess going by the green ink which matched other Gretsch sticks of the time. And, I would have to emphasize the word "best guess" here...They're 16 " long, and a hefty 5A thickness. I've never...

www.bopworks.net

 

[paulwells73]

@zenstat, as always I love the data and history you get the share here, grateful someone goes into these depths to document the history.

@paulwells73, that sounds right...I think we was play a Premier on some of videos. Yeah, who knows what Lenny saw.

Can't link the article but the rest of the quote in the article is quite brow raising:

"In 1992, Tony gave Wallace his canary yellow drumset. What happened next is a drummer's dream: "He opens up this huge crate about six feet long and three feet wide. It's full of brandnew, never used old Ks from the '40s and '50s. My heart stopped. He's laughing, saying, 'Go ahead, pick a set.' I started feeling guilty; I didn't want to take his cymbals. Right at the end of the crate were the older old Ks. I felt better about taking them because they were retired, and he wouldn't miss these as much as the ones he hadn't got to yet. I picked up three ride cymbals, two sock cymbals—a very thin 15" pair and a 14" pair—and a 20" and an 18". The ones I liked best were the three 22" rides, and he let me take them".

Would great to know what the other two 22" used/retired weights and class were. There was also mention outside this quote in reference to the Four and More and few others, on how small the bells were, with mini-cup references...thought that was interesting as well.


Also some side tidbits on the sticks, I think this was a separate Wallace Roney interview, but talks about the Max Roach model which became the 5D...4th from the top in this photo, which look accurate to other photos...never seen one in real life.

Then there is the tipless, which I think I've seen in some of the European footage which would be before 71' for sure so a bit of mystery there unless experimenting with the stick prior.

Gretsch Tony Williams Mystery Stick!

From the Bopworks Vault: The Tony WIlliams Gretsch 5A Tipless model sticks!!?Circa early 70's is a best guess going by the green ink which matched other Gretsch sticks of the time. And, I would have to emphasize the word "best guess" here...They're 16 " long, and a hefty 5A thickness. I've never...

www.bopworks.net

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Maybe getting a bit off topic, but as far as I know, there was never a Max Roach model stick from Gretsch. I’ve seen multiple photos of Tony where he is using a Gretsch 3D model Sonny Payne stick. Mike Clark has confirmed in interviews that he saw Tiny in 1968 and he was playing the 3D then. Perhaps Max was using the 3D as well, and Wallace thought it was Max’s signature stick? None of the Gretsch catalogs mention a Max Roach stick. The multiple ads Gretsch did featuring Max also make no mention of a signature stick.