What’s your favorite Nefertiti Clone?

[s1212z]

Maybe getting a bit off topic, but as far as I know, there was never a Max Roach model stick from Gretsch. I’ve seen multiple photos of Tony where he is using a Gretsch 3D model Sonny Payne stick. Mike Clark has confirmed in interviews that he saw Tiny in 1968 and he was playing the 3D then. Perhaps Max was using the 3D as well, and Wallace thought it was Max’s signature stick? None of the Gretsch catalogs mention a Max Roach stick. The multiple ads Gretsch did featuring Max also make no mention of a signature stick.

According the link earlier, Max wanted his name off the stick, think they said around 65’ and that became the 5D. So with your account, that would make sense if records are scarce. Definitely, that tip taper has come up before in photos, if I can find them…interesting on the 3D (2nd from top on photo before), appears to be a shorter stick. I’m sure like everyone, drummers experiment, I certainly carry more than one. Then Tony went big later on, he had a signature Zildjian stick, probably hard to find now but would like to pick one up just out of curiosity. That tip less is just weird, so I guess around lifetime 2, this is the stick we are hearing?

To connect with the topic at hand, would be nice to know which stick he was using during the Nefertiti performance.

 

[multijd]

Has anyone ever tried to talk to Kojo Roney or Cindy Blackman about this? Specifically the details of the original ride and it’s present location. They seem to be the most knowledgeable and closest to the source. Especially with Wallace’s involvement.

 

[JazzDrumGuy]

I do also have a Cymbal and Gong 22 holy grail that is close. I suppose I need to make a sound file.....

 

[AndyW.]

I mean hell, this random 20" Holy Grail sounds as close as anything here-- in the right set of circumstances. Demonstrated by my friend Michael @Griener in Berlin.

That was my cymbal, and I sold it to Michael, and he sold it to a drummer in Dresden, and then got it back, and now he's going to trade it back to me.

hmm...shame that it is leaving Germany again - I would have been interested. That is a nice cymbal !!

 

[Ptrick]

I think, as a line, the Zildjian K Con Renaissance rides capture some of the Nefertiti vibe. Clear sticking, heavier jazz weight, and trashy crash. The best ones I’ve heard are around 2600 grams. A bit trashier overall compared to the Bounce rides.

 

[toddbishop]

hmm...shame that it is leaving Germany again - I would have been interested. That is a nice cymbal !!

@Griener may be able to hook you up with something-- he helped me bring a bunch of cymbals over there in '18, 19, and '22, and knows where a lot of them are-- maybe somebody's looking to sell something.

I may also be bringing a few new cymbals to Germany in April... we'll see... get on my mailing list for news on that...

 

[DrummerJustLikeDad]

It’s a trick question.

I think Nefertiti is one of Robert Paiste’s inspiration pieces for the Sound Creation Dark Ride

And actually when I listen at about 7:04, I do kinda wonder...

 

[michaeldangelo]

I had a cymbal commissioned through Timothy Roberts (who also runs Reverie Drums and Stack Ring Percussion) with the goal being a cymbal that plays like Nefertiti, without trying to be exact. Basically I wanted a heavier weight cymbal (~2600g) with a clear stick sound, dragons breath wash, lots of shanking possibilities, and a big trashy crash.

Tim and I were talking about this exact cymbal a few days ago!

 

[Seb77]

… Two factors that often get overlooked when searching for a clone is the studio and the music itself.

Starting with the latter, the introspective and moody composition that is Nefertiti hooked me before the sound of the ride ever became a personal obsession. And given that Tony is given the lead, my love of the tune itself became an obsession. For me, his dynamics and the phrases that span all of his cymbals all contribute to the mystique of the 22. Side note: yes, I know Nefertiti is also the album title and not just the tune, but his performance on the tune seems to get most of the attention.

As for the studio, look at this place:
View attachment 594776
Sound on Sound discussed a separate session here:https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/miles-davis-round-midnight-classic-tracks

These sessions used different engineers, but there was apparently a manual Columbia used for sessions in the live room and one can imagine there being similarities between what is discussed and the Nefertiti sessions.

Listen to the drums on Nefertiti - especially the snare. It strikes me as being mid-heavy with a ton of room in the mix. The engineer on Nefertiti - Fred Plaut - was also known to record the likes of Glenn Gould.

I think the 22 would sound much different under a different mic, in a different room, and played by someone else. I think it would sound higher pitched than many clones target, and perhaps be cleaner than many dragons breath cymbals I personally love.

…

I have another new stamp that is slightly over 2400g that gets closer to the recorded sound. Another cymbal that should be mentioned as a possible clone is the Paiste Masters dark ride. It is roughly the same weight and with the same edge flange (for control and dragons breath) as my new stamp.

Interesting bit about the Paiste. I remember it being quite thin though? Maybe a low volume version of that sound, which might actually be more usable for typical jazz gigs.

Another engineer at Columbia was Frank Laico; I think he recorded Sorcerer and Miles Smiles. There are some interesting video interviews with him where he talks about the positive vibe at the sessions.
There is a great box set for afficionados called Freedom Jazz Dance that includes all outtakes, studio banter etc.

 

[DB-66]

Interesting bit about the Paiste. I remember it being quite thin though? Maybe a low volume version of that sound, which might actually be more usable for typical jazz gigs.

I think most of the ones I’ve seen weigh around 26xxg. The crash rides are several hundred grams thinner. I’d place it in the same vein as a Renaissance ride.

It was this gig that opened my eyes to it recently:

 

[paulwells73]

I think most of the ones I’ve seen weigh around 26xxg. The crash rides are several hundred grams thinner. I’d place it in the same vein as a Renaissance ride.

It was this gig that opened my eyes to it recently:

Jimmy Macbride - great drummer! I think he’s using a 22" Paiste Masters Dark Ride here.

 

[DB-66]

Jimmy Macbride - great drummer! I think he’s using a 22" Paiste Masters Dark Ride here.

He is. I think his is drilled for 4 rivets (with only a few installed) and a bit of tape underneath. To my ears it has the clear stick and dragon’s breath I associate with the Nefertiti ride.

I really dig his solo on this tune. The form is always clear with a good bit of storytelling.

 

[slcdrummer]

I think most of the ones I’ve seen weigh around 26xxg. The crash rides are several hundred grams thinner. I’d place it in the same vein as a Renaissance ride.

It was this gig that opened my eyes to it recently:

I love his cymbal sound. I saw him play at Smalls and I think he was playing one of the Paiste Masters dry 22's and it sounded great and rather TW-esque as well.

 

[slcdrummer]

I owned this Spizz TW 22 for about 2 weeks. It was a whole lot of cymbal.

 

[Seb77]

I was going to post some audio of the Agop TW from a local jam, but wasn't content with the music. It doesn't snt come with TW's touch, it also doesn't come with a Herbie or Ron playing with you...

 

[DB-66]

I owned this Spizz TW 22 for about 2 weeks. It was a whole lot of cymbal.

Do you recall the weight of yours?

 

[ThomasL]

I owned this Spizz TW 22 for about 2 weeks. It was a whole lot of cymbal.

You win! I owned mine for 4 weeks

 

[slcdrummer]

Do you recall the weight of yours?

It was 2582g

 

[slcdrummer]

You win! I owned mine for 4 weeks

Lol!! Yeah for what it cost I felt like it had to be perfect for me and as much as it sounded amazing it didn't fit in with my other favorites. so I listed it for the same price I paid for it one day and it sold in about two hours.

 

[curly]

This is quite nice

PGB Artisan Cymbals - Independant Cymbalsmith

22" Spring Ride | Hand Made in Canada

www.pgbartisancymbals.com