What are 20" Istanbul K Zildjians selling for these days?

toddbishop

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Reason: Thin Blank hammered over hammered cause bowl umbrella shape negating any and every low it could have had. That's just the way it was(and they_ were built during that era.
According to the smiths who manufacture Cymbal & Gong, they used to stack the blanks and stamp the bells on several cymbals at a time-- resulting in some of the very shallow bells I've seen.
 

JDA

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According to the smiths who manufacture Cymbal & Gong, they used to stack the blanks and stamp the bells on several cymbals at a time-- resulting in some of the very shallow bells I've seen.
well that evolved too. how they did it in 1950 by 1974 may have been a little different but point taken. The cups on old stamp -the low height wide- are -ta die (and pay) for- Intermediates it changed to an almost A-like; ; New Stamps it appeared to revert back to old stamp flatter less height but not as wide- but mostly didn't and they have their style.
You can set one's watch to their consistency/stamp era characteristics/ I've not in 20y been convinced or been shone ever otherwise.
It was the same small team thru eras is only explanation I can conjure
possible boss/foreman/ change every 6 years or so (20 years for old stamp, 6 for intermediate, 10 for new stamp. (and (boss, head office, letterhead) reason (even owner financial change) for the insignia changes.
I've seen many an old K letterhead and who owned what when.. changed was more fluid than we might think. in other words wasn't a stable always operation. may even shut down during lean times, and restarted (with new insignia and workers) who knows but everything is on table of possibility.
they were diameters and weight / six (or 3) over time flavors lol
 
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marc3k

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here was the 20 NNS with no lows 1888g
even the operator (owner) appeared puzzled by it.

Wow I really like this one! It seems to be so different from the newer turkish ones. This one would be a really nice "left side ride" in my opinion! I don't own anything like this...
 

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Wow I really like this one! It seems to be so different from the newer turkish ones. This one would be a really nice "left side ride" in my opinion! I don't own anything like this...
That may sounded great - from an audience side. From behind the drumset with no lows it was unlikable so much so I named it "Marilyn" it was a "frustrater". happens in light 20" New New Stamps (the last 70s ones) altho the weights of Elvin's New Stamp 20s (documented in the Gurnsey auctions) had his 20s all in that weight range. So go figure; believe me it was missing a low range; just wasn't there. Couldn't use it and had it part traded off to a fella who ended up selling it also. I wanted to love it but my 2009g New Stamp 20 was a more "complete" hi/mids/lo's cymbal. What a difference a couple hundred grams makes. Happens in A's too. From the 60s 70s pre ink . The Lighter the stronger appearance of higher..
 
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Matched Gripper

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unknown indeed did you really need to post that
No! Deleted. Just trying to inject some humor into the convo. I’ve seen some sky high asking prices for old K’s. I was surprised when you said no less than $800.
 
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JDA

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have to know how to ' watch and wait' even in these extremely inflated times.
 

marc3k

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That may sounded great - from an audience side. From behind the drumset with no lows it was unlikable so much so I named it "Marilyn" it was a "frustrater". happens in light 20" New New Stamps (the last 70s ones) altho the weights of Elvin's New Stamp 20s (documented in the Gurnsey auctions) had his 20s all in that weight range. So go figure; believe me it was missing a low range; just wasn't there. Couldn't use it and had it part traded off to a fella who ended up selling it also. I wanted to love it but my 2009g New Stamp 20 was a more "complete" hi/mids/lo's cymbal. What a difference a couple hundred grams makes. Happens in A's too. From the 60s 70s pre ink . The Lighter the stronger appearance of higher..
That's interesting! I feel the same about the weight, I have a light 20" Agop 30th (1780g), but here it's exactly the opposite effect - I think it is way too low and dark - more weight would probably lead to a more useful cymbal. I feel like nearly all of my cymbals have more lows than highs...
 
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JDA

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that's sounds correct; remember in old K they weren't tailored they were more like A's of the same time period. Some heavies appear low some light appear high.
With the 80s and the new Turkish companies (starting Istanbul and the 360 other firms that followed) aware of what came before (As and old Ks) attempted some tailoring (after their initial offerings) and took "just the low" aspect and magnified it.
That's not the why or how some old Ks and some old As were low. There's was less manipulation-and a simpler marketing going on in the older days.
The "target" profile of buyer wasn't "seen" in such detail. It was just hey, here's a cymbal do what you want with it, if you can use it.
Tailoring can be argued to have some side neg effects
 
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JDA

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the general randomness latitude of the older up to 80 A
the clueless to modern yet strict adherence to orchestral of old up to 70s Zildjian Ks

lands in many ways where we are today
 
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Carlos McSnurf

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factor number 1: era - older command higher prices
Factor number 2: weight. Less g more $$$, as usually it impacts factor 3
Factor 3: sound. The pies with distinctive wash are sought after.
What we see on market in classified “medium” weight (especially for pre intermediate stamp era), means cymbal used as orchestral/marcher at the time.
 

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I bought one of the K cymbals last week from saranjac that were listed in the forum. First off I wanted to say he’s a great guy to do business with. Second, I noticed that the stamped crescent moon appears upside down. A peculiarity I had not noticed before on K’s. I would have thought that the entire stamp was done at one time but now I will guess that it is at least a two part process. Either way I am digging the cymbal and am happy with the whole transaction.
 

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JDA

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You won't mistake that one!
That's a birthmark / identifying feature -of a particular cymbal- as we've ever seen. Lovely I think
Makes you feel like a real individual doesn't it..(as cymbals do
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

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with old Ks that those two things (besides condition) is the sound.
very consistent; the eras
far more than say As which (believe it or not) had a larger (allowed) latitude
oKs were more strict (than random) than people imagine (believe, assume)
I've seen (and heard) "my" cymbals 10 times over (each) in auctions and postings over and over the years; I can only attribute it to: same teams same guys built the cymbals within an era; disbanded regrouped; with a different stamp; with little to no build overlap;
Quite amazing actually- for a handmade product. But.
Most of the variation in sounds seen in the old A's comes from the fact that they were marketed to and made for a multitude of different styles of music whereas the K's were generally aimed at jazz players (the newer they are, the more they're aimed). Even with that, I'm in the camp who would say there are a higher percentage of K's that are dogs compared with old A's. So I'd get a sound file to make sure it's what you're looking for.
 

Pink69

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Yeah, the hammering on it looks like it could have been made on a magic carpet. Does anyone know what the stamping process for these used to be? Thanks
 

JDA

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Yeah, the hammering on it looks like it could have been made on a magic carpet. Does anyone know what the stamping process for these used to be? Thanks
It's old system (used by most all) You can see it in Bosphorus videos (they btw are now laser)
Others have described it. It's a 3-part 'tumbler thing. The Top part must have flipped when yours/that one was stamped and operator just moved along.
Can see in Bosphorus video the operator "adjusting" lining up, with his finger the 3 parts of the "stamp"... so, (parts of) they moved...and sometimes.. spun/ were in, flipped position.
 

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Most of the variation in sounds seen in the old A's comes from the fact that they were marketed to and made for a multitude of different styles of music whereas the K's were generally aimed at jazz (orchestral) -jda players (the newer they are, the more they're aimed). Even with that, I'm in the camp who would say there are a higher percentage of K's that are dogs compared with old A's. So I'd get a sound file to make sure it's what you're looking for.
that can be (uselessly) argued till the cows come home. What if someone doesn't like a thing about Paiste. Does that entitle him to say to him all Paiste are dogs. (no). Objective dogs could be found 100 years ago (in cymbals) . Yesterday in cymbals. and Tomorrow in cymbals. and like in the next 100 years of cymbals. I'll contend old K Zildjian were no worse than any other company yesterday, today or tomorrow. You're welcome.
You are mostly correct. I may contend old K Zildjian were still unawares in manufacture of their cymbals towards Jazz (Dance/ drum set) and leaned and built Orchestral until the very end in 1978. But that's a minor point. They just happened to work in Jazz and other musics. Their only "modern" connection was Phil Grant... thousands of miles away in Brooklyn NY and what messages he sent were far few between and possibly not understood or reached.. Altho the stamp change to Istanbul in 1940 sure found a place in popular dance music. moreso than the prior Constantinople Old K period (where 'the dog' tag I suspect was actually invented and lingered unjustly onto the Istanbul Old Ks)

When Gene Krupa in the early 30s (early) went to Avedis and said "we musicians need you to make these thinner" I suspect in his hands at that time ..at that moment... was an old K Constantinople (a small heavy 12"-13" thick plate) ...that he had been using as a bottom hi hat.
Armand (born 1922 could have been around 15 yo, 1937...) says when Gene first came to them he was using an old K Con as bottom hi hat. It's recounted by Armand in the Hal Leonard Zildjian book.

that's the tie to the "dog" tag.
You'll search hard and long to find (more than other company's) dogs in K Istanbul Zildjian. K Constantinople; easy to call some dogs; they were primitive. Some K Istanbul could be too heavy but that's what orchestra cymbal can sometimes and require to be.
the rest is exaggerated wives tale no different than any other company that makes/ made variety
 
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Franklin Nigel Stein

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that can be (uselessly) argued till the cows come home. What if someone doesn't like a thing about Paiste. Does that entitle him to say to him all Paiste are dogs. (no). Objective dogs could be found 100 years ago (in cymbals) . Yesterday in cymbals. and Tomorrow in cymbals. and like in the next 100 years of cymbals. I'll contend old K Zildjian were no worse than any other company yesterday, today or tomorrow. You're welcome.
You are mostly correct. I may contend old K Zildjian were still unawares in manufacture of their cymbals towards Jazz (Dance/ drum set) and leaned and built Orchestral until the very end in 1978. But that's a minor point. They just happened to work in Jazz and other musics. Their only "modern" connection was Phil Grant... thousands of miles away in Brooklyn NY and what messages he sent were far few between and possibly not understood or reached.. Altho the stamp change to Istanbul in 1940 sure found a place in popular dance music. moreso than the prior Constantinople Old K period (where 'the dog' tag I suspect was actually invented and lingered unjustly onto the Istanbul Old Ks)

When Gene Krupa in the early 30s (early) went to Avedis and said "we musicians need you to make these thinner" I suspect in his hands at that time ..at that moment... was an old K Constantinople (a small heavy 12"-13" thick plate) ...that he had been using as a bottom hi hat.
Armand (born 1922 could have been around 15 yo, 1937...) says when Gene first came to them he was using an old K Con as bottom hi hat. It's recounted by Armand in the Hal Leonard Zildjian book.

that's the tie to the 'dog" tag.
You'll search hard and long to find (more than other company's) dogs in K Istanbul Zildjian. Some could be too heavy but that's what orchestra cymbal can sometimes for orchestra be.
You’re a bit testy on the K’s, hmmm?

And please don’t add to my quote. The term “generally” doesn’t mean exclusively and I didn’t feel the need to add any sub groups.

Even you would have to admit that you’re a hard core koolaid drinker when it comes to K’s. I’ve known drummers like that. They’ll hear a truly awful K and deny it’s a trash can lid saying, “no, that’s just its uniqueness”.
 

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You’re a bit testy on the K’s, hmmm?
only when those that haven't owned played paid attention to for 20 years need cleared up

Even you would have to admit that you’re a hard core koolaid drinker when it comes to K’s.
there's no kool aid drinkers when I ask you to name a current or past company that does at least offer 1 " K-Type" line or professes to use that manufacturing process, advertises it as a Feature... today.
Try and name one company that has no/ takes none whatso ever/ influence from old Ks.

Go ahead. I'll wait.
Name 1.
That my friend is no kool aid.
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

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only when those that haven't owned played paid attention to for 20 years need cleared up
I’ve owned a few K’s, three in total. And I’ve played more (rides mostly). One of my three was horrible and the other two were meh. Of the four rides I’ve played, only one made me smile.

edit - and adding to my limited skills I recently began employing a new drum instructor (jazz player who isn’t new to recording studios). When I first sat behind his teaching kit, I was again playing on K’s. Only one of his four impressed me. I now bring my own hats to the lessons.
 
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JDA

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they're the foundation of whatever you're playing today----you have to give Turkish Zildjian from Turkey pre-Avedis in America that

aside from some B8 paiste and rotocast Ufip and wuhan sledged..
and don't forget the stainless-steel fella .
 


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