What are the differences in how the 60s A and K Zildjians rides were made?

VinSparkle

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of course. on this computer i have this. On the other computer- if I get to it today- I'll have more. hang on.
this a 20" New Stamp at 2009g. My 22 New Stamp amplifies this moreso. pic is on other computer.
The thing about old Ks is -within an era- they were "all the same" consistent - so any buyer- can buy the same thing. To the point I think eras were teams. That built in the same way. And when the "teams' (or foreman) changed so did the "stamp" and the "style". Much different than stamp gazing with old As. With old Ks a stamp change had major accompanying build ( and sound accompanying) differences it was like a total company change of style that stayed thru-out a (stamp) era. very distinct. Very consistent. For a handmade product remarkable in similarity of all the cymbals produced in any particular era. Makes me think it was the 'same' group of workers or same leader foreman. for a period ; at a time in a section of time. You can see from Bosphorus company there's about 12 guys involved (guessing 12) involved from start to finish. I think those guys (the teams back then) stayed mostly together thru-out a stamp period at old K works. Because I can duplicate that cymbal all day long (with a same era old K) visually and very much otherwise, on eBay used, same era, diameter ; it will be near identical. no matter where it is or no matter where it ended up in the world.

View attachment 477947

20" 67-72 New Stamp
2009g

View attachment 477947
that's a typical New Stamp. All day long. from anywhere on the planet from any seller
same small team, same guys built it as another team did all the rest with in another era.
for what little info (there's some) is known (there's some pictures outside and inside) about the old KZ works, I wouldn't be surprised if the old K works would disband during slow periods and then regroup (with a new insignia)
account for the changes
hard to over-emphasize but I think I did ; )
thanks for posting all this. Appears the bow is also pretty curved. Very droopy as you approach the edge. Is that right? Paul’s talked about curvature a lot
462F91B1-148F-41ED-9632-EBC8F22AB0DF.jpeg
 

JDA

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Very droopy as you approach the edge. Is that right?
yes but not nearly as radical as some Istanbuls or a Paiste Rough Ride; more an afterthought result of hammering; not exactly intentional; wasn't like they were building "drum set" cymbals; all they knew I think even into 1978 were symphony (cymbals..
 

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I own about 20 or so K. Zildjians (Istanbul and Constantinople). My personal observations are that they are marked differences between them. Unless someone can prove to me otherwise, the early machinery in Turkish factory was probably not run by electricity. The rolling and lathing machines (besides being from the late 19th or early 20th century) might very well been human powered and therefore, somewhat "imperfect" by todays standards. I believe that that imperfection may have been the nucleus for the unique qualities of the Constantinople and early Istanbul K's.
The lathing can be uneven and is sometimes gouged deeply as well as shallow. A simple test of putting a cymbal on a post stand and placing one hand atop the cymbal at the base of the Bell and the other directly beneath and lightly pulling your fingers to the outside edge reveals both thick and shallow spots. This, I believe is one of the sources of the dark, washy gong-like sound. I suspect that by the 1930-40's, 20th century manufacturing techniques were influencing and standardizing (improving?) the Istanbul process. Even so, the hands-on, old school ways of shaping and hammering the cymbals were still the norm. The American factory on the other hand, had the advantage of accessing the latest industrial metal working techniques and machinery which saved labor and time.
 
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Old Drummer

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Rick Dior has a real passion for old K’s, and he dedicated one of his many YouTube vids on it, a whole 30 minutes all about the old K’s! Pretty cool -

Not the point, but I actually don't care for his cymbals. They don't annoy me, and in some ways they're kind of cool, but they're striking me as specialty cymbals rather than cymbals I'd play routinely. Maybe that's the old K sound (although I owned one once and didn't have the same reaction to it).

Also not the point, I was interested in his comment about cymbal hums. He went over that too fast for me to understand or hear what he was talking about, but it's not anything I'd heard anyone mention before and I suspect there's something to it.
 

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Not the point, but I actually don't care for his cymbals. They don't annoy me, and in some ways they're kind of cool, but they're striking me as specialty cymbals rather than cymbals I'd play routinely. Maybe that's the old K sound (although I owned one once and didn't have the same reaction to it).

Also not the point, I was interested in his comment about cymbal hums. He went over that too fast for me to understand or hear what he was talking about, but it's not anything I'd heard anyone mention before and I suspect there's something to it.
Personally I really love the smoky sound of those cymbals, especially the 21.5" like dragonbreath ride.

About "hum", I call it ring or strike tone, cymbals struck repeatedly start to develop a discernible pitch in the wash, I think of it like a church bell, you don't hear the wash because the specific pitch is so much more prominent. Ding Dong Ding, instead of "whoosh". So he was saying to watch out for cymbals if the hum/ring ding dong C# pitch is louder than the wash.
 
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ThomasL

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I own about 20 or so K. Zildjians (Istanbul and Constantinople). My personal observations are that they are marked differences between them. Unless someone can prove to me otherwise, the early machinery in Turkish factory was probably not run by electricity. The rolling and lathing machines (besides being from the late 19th or early 20th century) might very well been human powered and therefore, somewhat "imperfect" by todays standards.
I recall reading a story about a donkey/mule powered wheel in the basement, which was spinning the lathe(s) (via some gears?), but I have no idea if it is true or not...
 

ThomasL

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Personally I really love the smoky sound of those cymbals, especially the 21.5" like dragonbreath ride.
Yeah, the 21.5" sounds fantastic IMO, but it is perhaps a ride for studio playing or miked gigs, seemed on the quieter side even for old K's?
 

JDA

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I recall reading a story about a donkey/mule powered wheel in the basement, which was spinning the lathe(s) (via some gears?), but I have no idea if it is true or not...
that would have beenmaybe in the 1800s 1900s 1910s 1920s maybe the 30s. But probably kicked the donkey out by the 40s K Istanbul (no pun) s.
It's not like they were doing it (the mule) in 1967...geesh..
 

UptownShakedown

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Is there a difference between hand-hammered and machine hammered? If the pattern is the same, hammered is hammered or no?
 

Ian S

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Also there's no way a machine will hammer in the organic and somewhat random and imperfect manner like a human hand. Perfectly same angle and spaced exactly the same, a mathematical pattern, will create a much different outcome than the human's imperfect strike of a hammer. The imperfect human touch and the hours spent, IMO, is what brings out the soul of an instrument. Even if you program a machine to do things more randomly, this is still no substitute, the soul is in the human touch.
 
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JDA

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but as long as I've owned and played and thought about them
There are some drawbacks to old Ks.
Besides :
Availability- 40 years on; you don't pick and "choose" them more often than not they come to you
Price: of course that's been said and hollered at a 1000 times


But there's a Third reason . And it's one I have heard only 1 other guy mention. And it's this.

They aren't drum set cymbals.
Let me repeat and explain that.
They aren't drum set cymbals.

in the sense
In the modern sense of "sets"
Hi Hat ride ride/crash on other side . No.

Each one is a strong individual with no obligation (design or other wise) to play well with other Old Ks.
So you have to get modern usuage modern pairing and matching and ensemble the hell out of your head.

They weren't built as Drum set cymbals.


Of course you can mix and match them up.
But it's not a given
It's not
 

ThomasL

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Think how a jazz drummer with a great touch plays his ride cymbal. That's like hand hammering. Can you make a machine that gets the same sound from the cymbal?

That might have been a slight exaggeration, but I think the impact, velocity and force are different between hand and machine hammering. And of course, the machine is more consistent in its strokes, even if the hammering positions are chosen by a human (I think Paiste hammers like this, A Zildjian hammering is probably fully automated).

I think a much more relevant question is, whether the cymbal is initially pressed into shape (probably all Zildjians etc.?) or hammered into shape from a flat blank with only the bell pressed in (the traditional Turkish way). According to Craig Lauritsen, a pressed cymbal will in general not have as rich a frequency spectrum as one pressed into shape (this is how I remember it, not a direct quote).

So if you compare New Stamp K's to A's from the same period, there are lots of differences:

Processes like ingot making (including exact alloy composition), rolling, and bell pressing probably varied more for K's. Also the bell shape is different.

A's were pressed into shape, then machine hammered (in concentric circles?), while the K's were shaped completely by hand hammering (after bell pressing).

Like Joe wrote above, it seems like the K's might have been lathed in several steps (last step for narrow and deep lathing marks).

I have a feeling that the K bronze might be harder than the A, but I don't know if this is a general feature or whether the K hardness varied and only some cymbals were harder. Some old K's crack in ways I have never seen A's crack. I also recall someone quoting Paul Francis saying that Zildjian could make the bronze as hard as the Istanbul K's, but the cymbals would be too fragile for modern playing styles. Again, I don't have this documented.

If you look at older eras, the K's varied even more. For example, the bells were not pressed in, but sledge hammered using dies. They did a stack of blanks at a single go, the the exact bell shape would depend on the position of the blank in the stack and possibly also on how well the dies were aligned. Of course, also the A process was different in older days.
 

Esotericdrums

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Number Two you have generally three Era's of old K Istanbul ; so when "another Company" (cough, Avedis) Decides to "make a K".

Which era. Which era are they attempting the duplicate.

You see? There's no "reconstruction" unless pin-point to certain era age year of Old K Istanbul.
This is where Francis and crew just smooth it all over into " one K" when there were clearly Defined Eras.

So they end (up) with a hit (sometimes) or miss (sometimes) or don't even try at all to say they are replicating...and just say hmm "here's a K"..

(and why the original Old K Istanbul have still yet to go down in value. in the eyes and sometimes pocketbook of drummer)
But there's another storm cloud on the old K tradition horizon. And that is small Turkish makers that make in the same "hand" way..but yet do not have the exact result (for whatever reason) as an old K Istanbul had, yet possess another part (vibration mostly) of what a (mostly majorly) hand made cymbal possesses, It's a tricky business.

So that's two views- coming at the old K Istanbul-
1) analysis and machine recreation (avedis)
2) tradition and method (bosphorus one example)

the old K Zildjian Istanbul (1940-1978)
remains unique
but pursued or "kept" alive
somewhat by two companies . (sort of at least) (there's more and others)

Old K Istanbul remains unique.

the contest would be: Avedis deciding to hand hammer an entire cymbal (applying their knowledge and analysis of Old K Istanbuls)
or
"Bosphorus" one day deciding to entirely recreate an Old K Zildjian Istanbul by say um visual analysis alone..

Neither seem to be, moving to, caring to, or see any reason to; move in that direction
So Old K Zildjian Made in Istanbul remains unique afloat.

mehmet has a sub series of tony williams tribute cymbal line called jazz-rock
look like dead ringer of (and appear to have some of the sound flavor ) of new stamp old Ks. appears watch the "yellow" video.. the amount sold can be counted on two hands and two feet worldwide total
How close do you think Craig Lauritsen gets with his old stamp clones? The soundfile videos online sound great and seem to really capture the look and sound of the old stamps

he seems like the type of cymbalsmith who takes his time with each individual cymbal and doesn’t rush it or turn it into something it’s not
 

hsosdrum

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Think how a jazz drummer with a great touch plays his ride cymbal. That's like hand hammering. Can you make a machine that gets the same sound from the cymbal?
This is a false analogy. A cymbal is not a work of art, a cymbal is a tool. A drummer is an artist who uses tools (cymbals among them) to make art. The question at the heart of this discussion is not "Can a machine make the same art from a cymbal as a human can", the question at hand is "Can a tool that was made entirely by a machine* be as useful to an artist as a tool that was made entirely by a human?" I contend that it is up to each individual artist to answer this question for themselves. No one such answer can be universal for all artists; indeed, it is the artist's individuality that makes them an artist in the first place.

*It's useful to remember that the machines we're talking about were designed and programmed to do their jobs by humans, many of whom are themselves artists who use cymbals to create art. And those designers and programmers received input from many other such artists regarding the qualities of their individual tools that they feel are important in their creative endeavors. It's also useful to consider that all of the cymbals being discussed, even the ones hammered by machines are lathed by human beings.
 
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ThomasL

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This is a false analogy. A cymbal is not a work of art, a cymbal is a tool. A drummer is an artist who uses tools (cymbals among them) to make art. The question at the heart of this discussion is not "Can a machine make the same art from a cymbal as a human can", the question at hand is "Can a tool that was made entirely by a machine* be as useful to an artist as a tool that was made entirely by a human?" I contend that it is up to each individual artist to answer this question for themselves. No one such answer can be universal for all artists; indeed, it is the artist's individuality that makes them an artist in the first place.

*It's useful to remember that the machines we're talking about were designed and programmed to do their jobs by humans, many of whom are themselves artists who use cymbals to create art. And those designers and programmers received input from many other such artists regarding the qualities of their individual tools that they feel are important in their creative endeavors. It's also useful to consider that all of the cymbals being discussed, even the ones hammered by machines are lathed by human beings.
I think a great instrument is a work of art. But I agree that what I wrote is not a good analogy for old K's or hand-hammered cymbals in general, only for cymbals made by the independent cymbalsmiths.

Perhaps you should have read more than my first sentence before replying (boldface added):

Think how a jazz drummer with a great touch plays his ride cymbal. That's like hand hammering. Can you make a machine that gets the same sound from the cymbal?

That might have been a slight exaggeration, but I think the impact, velocity and force are different between hand and machine hammering. And of course, the machine is more consistent in its strokes, even if the hammering positions are chosen by a human (I think Paiste hammers like this, A Zildjian hammering is probably fully automated).

I think a much more relevant question is, whether the cymbal is initially pressed into shape (probably all Zildjians etc.?) or hammered into shape from a flat blank with only the bell pressed in (the traditional Turkish way). According to Craig Lauritsen, a pressed cymbal will in general not have as rich a frequency spectrum as one pressed into shape (this is how I remember it, not a direct quote).
 

Pink69

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Back in the day when Turkish K’s were still being made and commercially sold, what was their price point compared to US made A’s? Did they sell for more, less, or the same? Just wanted to know if price was a factor in a drummer’s choice between one or the other.
 


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