What did you find to be the best way to learn limb independence?

[aarono2690]

Been practicing more seriously lately and I notice I need a lot of warm-up during each practice session to get my brain on the limb independence train. Early on in my daily practice routine I seem to have a bunch of rust I shake off before I can comfortably get my limbs to work independently. During the warm-up I'll notice I lose time if I try working three or four limbs at once, my hands try to do the same thing at the same time (snare/hat) when they shouldn't be, etc. I'm concerned because it doesn't seem to matter how much I practice a limb independence exercise, unless my body/mind are warmed up I'm going to struggle at something I was doing relatively well the other day. It feels like I lose my progress each day and I require a bunch of time to get back into shape.

I'm currently working on The Art of Bop Drumming and had to really grind the early exercises (i.e. Track 3 phrasing exercise) for 20-30 minutes before I started getting semi-comfortable with them. I still need to work the bass drum in, but I'm at least getting the hat/snare/ride to match the exercise notation a bit.

I've done some ostinato work in the Syncopation book and I found that helpful/pushed me. Do you think I should spend more time working on ostinatos in Syncopation/AoBD exercises and things will come in time or are there other exercises/books you'd recommend?

 

[JimmyM]

I’m not seeing the problem. You say you just need to warm up before your independence kicks in, and I’d say so does everyone

 

[cworrick]

It's not a perfect 4 way independence, but I use Stick Control to get my four limbs warmed up and worked out.
It also helps get the bass drum foot loosened up.

Right hand (Left if you are a lefty) plays Jazz ride pattern.
Left Foot (or right if set up LH) Hi Hat plays 2 & 4 jazz pattern

Stick Control lines 1-13
R becomes Right (bass drum) foot.
L becomes Left hand on snare drum.

1 minute each line = 13 minute warmup/independence workout.
30 seconds each line if in a hurry.


Once you get that going, then you can work yourself to death with this:

 

[Seb77]

"Independence" is an illusion. It's like a trick you can pull off, with a lot of practice. What you actually do is coordinating the limbs: Polyrhythms are only the result of figuring out which strokes happen at the same time and which ones happen consecutively. Even something simple like 8th notes on the cymbal with quarter notes in the bass drum once started out as "both at the same time, then cymbal alone, both together - alone - together - alone..." We only have one brain.

There is an element of repeated patterns working automatically, and you can get to a point to phrase freely on top with another limb, but it takes time, and there are no shortcuts. I'd say there is no set of exercises that unlock all other patterns: you need to work on each new pattern from the start, you might just get faster learning a new one. At the beginning each polyrhythmic groove or system of ostinato and solo phrasing needs to be figured out slowly.

 

[toddbishop]

"Independence" is an illusion. It's like a trick you can pull off, with a lot of practice. What you actually do is coordinating the limbs: Polyrhythms are only the result of figuring out which strokes happen at the same time and which ones happen consecutively. Even something simple like 8th notes on the cymbal with quarter notes in the bass drum once started out as "both at the same time, then cymbal alone, both together - alone - together - alone..." We only have one brain.

There is an element of repeated patterns working automatically, and you can get to a point to phrase freely on top with another limb, but it takes time, and there are no shortcuts. I'd say there is no set of exercises that unlock all other patterns: you need to work on each new pattern from the start, you might just get faster learning a new one. At the beginning each polyrhythmic groove or system of ostinato and solo phrasing needs to be figured out slowly.

Exactly, there is no independence, there's just coordination. Everything you play = one rhythm, played with sequences of limbs, or sequences of unisons of limbs-- a four way sticking.

The way to work on it is to pay attention to it while doing normal stuff. It helps to know the combined rhythm of whatever pattern you're playing, and to figure out the four way sticking you need to play that rhythm. Like you want to be as conversant with RH/RF unisons and both hands unisons as you are with plain Stick Control-style Rs and Ls.

The rhythm there is 1 & 2 &a3e& 4 &.
The sticking is R R H RLRLR H R --- R = rh/bd unison / H = both hands in unison

 

[bigbonzo]

When we say "independence", I'm sure everyone knows what is meant.
No need to get hung up on terminology.

 

[aarono2690]

I

It's not a perfect 4 way independence, but I use Stick Control to get my four limbs warmed up and worked out.
It also helps get the bass drum foot loosened up.

Right hand (Left if you are a lefty) plays Jazz ride pattern.
Left Foot (or right if set up LH) Hi Hat plays 2 & 4 jazz pattern

Stick Control lines 1-13
R becomes Right (bass drum) foot.
L becomes Left hand on snare drum.

1 minute each line = 13 minute warmup/independence workout.
30 seconds each line if in a hurry.


Once you get that going, then you can work yourself to death with this:

I have this book and need to work with it more. This book definitely makes your brain hurt as you progress.

 

[Matched Gripper]

Been practicing more seriously lately and I notice I need a lot of warm-up during each practice session to get my brain on the limb independence train. Early on in my daily practice routine I seem to have a bunch of rust I shake off before I can comfortably get my limbs to work independently. During the warm-up I'll notice I lose time if I try working three or four limbs at once, my hands try to do the same thing at the same time (snare/hat) when they shouldn't be, etc. I'm concerned because it doesn't seem to matter how much I practice a limb independence exercise, unless my body/mind are warmed up I'm going to struggle at something I was doing relatively well the other day. It feels like I lose my progress each day and I require a bunch of time to get back into shape.

I'm currently working on The Art of Bop Drumming and had to really grind the early exercises (i.e. Track 3 phrasing exercise) for 20-30 minutes before I started getting semi-comfortable with them. I still need to work the bass drum in, but I'm at least getting the hat/snare/ride to match the exercise notation a bit.

I've done some ostinato work in the Syncopation book and I found that helpful/pushed me. Do you think I should spend more time working on ostinatos in Syncopation/AoBD exercises and things will come in time or are there other exercises/books you'd recommend?

It’s a process that takes consistent practice over time. “Syncopation” is a great book to work out of. “Advanced Techniques” is another.

In addition, I posted a thread in this section on DFO over a year ago called “Comping Workout” that is an intense independence/conditioning workout you might want to look at.

 

[aarono2690]

It’s a process that takes consistent practice over time. “Syncopation” is a great book to work out of. “Advanced Techniques” is another.

In addition, I posted a thread in this section on DFO over a year ago called “Comping Workout” that is an intense independence/conditioning workout you might want to look at.

I will look for that, thank you.

 

[Matched Gripper]

I will look for that, thank you.

Found it!

Comping Workout (Update)

This is a workout that I came up with many years ago and forgot about. I was inspired by a local drummer (who I haven't seen before or since), who could play ridiculously fast and tasty patterns between his snare and bass drum while maintaining the ride swing pattern when trading 4's. All...

www.drumforum.org

 

[aarono2690]

You rock! I’ll print out your thread so I can practice it tonight.

Found it!

Comping Workout (Update)

This is a workout that I came up with many years ago and forgot about. I was inspired by a local drummer (who I haven't seen before or since), who could play ridiculously fast and tasty patterns between his snare and bass drum while maintaining the ride swing pattern when trading 4's. All...

www.drumforum.org

 

[aarono2690]

Found it!

Comping Workout (Update)

This is a workout that I came up with many years ago and forgot about. I was inspired by a local drummer (who I haven't seen before or since), who could play ridiculously fast and tasty patterns between his snare and bass drum while maintaining the ride swing pattern when trading 4's. All...

www.drumforum.org

One quick question. As you stated in the post, do the typical jazz pattern on the ride and hat on 2/4.

My bass foot/snare hand will just play straight through doing 8th notes in Section I correct, i.e. one and two and three and four and? When I get to Section II I'm just counting the snare/bass drum as one-trip-let, two-trip-let, three-trip-let, four-trip-let?

 

[Matched Gripper]

One quick question. As you stated in the post, do the typical jazz pattern on the ride and hat on 2/4.

My bass foot/snare hand will just play straight through doing 8th notes in Section I correct, i.e. one and two and three and four and? When I get to Section II I'm just counting the snare/bass drum as one-trip-let, two-trip-let, three-trip-let, four-trip-let?

Yes and yes. All 3 sections are played against a swing pattern on the ride, 2 and 4 on hihats. The straight 8ths in Section I are played straight against swingtime, if you want to work on that skill. It’s a cool effect. But, as the tempo goes up and the cymbal beat starts to straighten out, the comping patterns tend to merge with the cymbal pattern.

 

[aarono2690]

It's not a perfect 4 way independence, but I use Stick Control to get my four limbs warmed up and worked out.
It also helps get the bass drum foot loosened up.

Right hand (Left if you are a lefty) plays Jazz ride pattern.
Left Foot (or right if set up LH) Hi Hat plays 2 & 4 jazz pattern

Stick Control lines 1-13
R becomes Right (bass drum) foot.
L becomes Left hand on snare drum.

1 minute each line = 13 minute warmup/independence workout.
30 seconds each line if in a hurry.


Once you get that going, then you can work yourself to death with this:

Trying this now. Good challenge

 

[Pat A Flafla]

This makes me think of Minneman's Extreme Interdependence method book. It's full of tough material, but the introductory "warmup" section might be particularly useful to you.

 

[aarono2690]

I have this book, but don’t use it much. Is having a scanner necessary to copy certain pages? I feel like at one point he says to use patterns from page 3 with the patterns on page 10. Maybe I’m over thinking things as I got this book very early on and havn’t touched it in a very long time.

This makes me think of Minneman's Extreme Interdependence method book. It's full of tough material, but the introductory "warmup" section might be particularly useful to you.

 

[Pat A Flafla]

I have this book, but don’t use it much. Is having a scanner necessary to copy certain pages? I feel like at one point he says to use patterns from page 3 with the patterns on page 10. Maybe I’m over thinking things as I got this book very early on and havn’t touched it in a very long time.

Yeah, I think maybe what he intended was for us to memorize one of the ostinati from section two, and then read around in section three, overlaying that stuff. It's been a really long time since I've messed with it as well.

 

[green glass drum]

Here is 1 to try:
Play a clave beat with your foot on the hi hat.
Keep it going...Then....
Play a basic rock beat on top of that and keep the clave going.

 

[luckydrummer95]

"Independence" is an illusion. It's like a trick you can pull off, with a lot of practice. What you actually do is coordinating the limbs: Polyrhythms are only the result of figuring out which strokes happen at the same time and which ones happen consecutively. Even something simple like 8th notes on the cymbal with quarter notes in the bass drum once started out as "both at the same time, then cymbal alone, both together - alone - together - alone..." We only have one brain.

There is an element of repeated patterns working automatically, and you can get to a point to phrase freely on top with another limb, but it takes time, and there are no shortcuts. I'd say there is no set of exercises that unlock all other patterns: you need to work on each new pattern from the start, you might just get faster learning a new one. At the beginning each polyrhythmic groove or system of ostinato and solo phrasing needs to be figured out slowly.

This has been my experience. I wonder if that's how it works for every drummer, or if some develop genuine independence.

Anyway, in my case @aarono2690 I just brute force trying to play a polyrhythm until it clicks in my brain and I can recognize how each stroke fits into the general pattern.

 

[drums1225]

A little late to this thread as I mostly read the General section daily. My earliest independence work was in the book "Rockin' Bass Drum", but I believe my teacher had me play only 3 limbs while keeping the hi-hat closed. I was 10 or 11 at the time, but learning to syncopate 16th note subdivisions on the bass drum was invaluable.

Then, when I was around 18 or 19, and became interested in jazz and fusion (not in that order), my 4 way independence studies were largely in "The New Breed" by Gary Chester and by using "Syncopation" by Ted Reed for jazz comping. The New Breed was mind-blowingly effective, not only in teaching 4 way coordination, but by adding the voice as the "5th limb", it took everything to a whole other level. I wasn't singing from behind the kit much at that time, but paving those pathways in my brain enabled me to more effectively do so when the time came.