What would you do?

DWSlingerland45

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Pontiac Rich, I'd return it and move on, let ebay solve the issue. Then take your refunded money and hunt down a nice used rock crash in your area. I'm from Scarborough originally I wish I was home now I'd gladly be the third pary evaluator. You can definitely see that dent in the pic of the underside of the cymbal. Good Luck
 

fun2drum

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...Here's what the sellers initial comment was to me when I informed him of the dent:

"Wow, I'm very sorry to hear that. I've shipped cymbals before like that no problem. It was definitely dent free when it shipped."

You just caught the guy in a lie right there. He makes it sound as if he does this all the time and you're the only person who's had a problem with it. However, If you look at his feedback listing, there's only 4 from buyers in the past several years. That means he only sold 4 items (at least that received feedback) over the past year and none of them were cymbals. The only reason he's got 100% positive feedback is that he's only received 4 feedback from buyers in the past year, all within the past few weeks. Seriously, I'll give a seller some slack for making a mistake, but an attitude like you've described in this seller is totally uncalled for. The guy is an eBay hack that needs to be put in his place. People like that ruin eBay for both buyers and honest sellers.
 

Rich K.

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When people say "it's not the money, it's the principle," it's the money.

I would return the cymbal for the refund and eat the return shipping. It would be less than $20 to ship back. Then you could be done with it. You're giving yourself a lot of agita over a used cymbal.
The 20 bucks may not be a drop in the bucket, but return shipping is the ebay rule. And, when you buy used you have to assume a small risk. That's the price you pay for getting a deal. If you love the cymbal, take whatever refund the seller offers. If you don't like it, return it and move on
 

madchops82

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Ask for a partial refund. The cymbal probably still sounds the same...just a small dent.
 

pontiacrich

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When people say "it's not the money, it's the principle," it's the money.

I would return the cymbal for the refund and eat the return shipping. It would be less than $20 to ship back. Then you could be done with it. You're giving yourself a lot of agita over a used cymbal.
The 20 bucks may not be a drop in the bucket, but return shipping is the ebay rule. And, when you buy used you have to assume a small risk. That's the price you pay for getting a deal. If you love the cymbal, take whatever refund the seller offers. If you don't like it, return it and move on
Rich K I really appreciate your pragmatic view point. It's good to get other people's opinion - that's why I started this thread.

However, I must disagree with your first comment. Actually, it is the principle. $170 or the return shipping cost is not that big a deal to me at this point in my life (Wow, I can't believe I'm old enough to say "at this point in my life") and I am perfectly willing to keep the cymbal or send it back.

The point is, this person has called me a liar, an extortionist and a crook. That I will not stand for. I try to live my life honestly, ethically and with integrity. I'm certainly no angel, but I cannnot abide by what I consider slander by a complete stranger.

I unerstand the risk of buying on ebay, but if anyone in this transaction lied, it was the seller. I want this person held accountable that's all. I have escalated this up the ebay resolution chain.

I do agree with you on is that I am getting agita.

Thanks for your input.
 

premierplayer

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I'll fix it for ya' for $50 :idea1:

Return the cymbal "not as described" full refund including shipping. Buy another cymbal, be happy with your purchase, not sorry you did'nt return it when you had the chance.
 

va87

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This is the most important question YOU have to answer:
Do you LIKE how the cymbal sounds?
An "A" Rock crash is a stout cymbal. There is definitely a "dent". But that cymbal is designed and built to take a bit of a pounding, not unlike, say, a "K" thin crash. Different animals.
If it were me, and I liked how it sounded.......I'd continue with the dispute resolution process (good luck with Ebay.......it's why I DO NOT do FeeBay anymore), and if the seller will agree to it apart from the dispute resolution thing, get $50 back as a partial refund. I would not leave any feedback until the entire drama is over.

If you hate how it sounds......(and that dent does not effect the sound of that cymbal in any appreciable way. It just doesn't.) then you are at the mercy of FeeBay and the seller. NOT a good place to be!

Good luck my friend!
 

TDM

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Pontiac Rich,

I'm up-to-date with the entire thread now. Based on your pictures and the pictures in the seller's listing, I *do* see a small/minor dent in both sets of pictures, especially in the last one of the seller's pictures. I could see how the seller might have missed this. Then again, it is the seller's job to *carefully* inspect the goods before describing them as in "new" and "mint" condition. That cymbal isn't in new condition, however, it's still in very good condition.

Regarding the dent itself, it's minor enough that I highly doubt it will have any sonic affect on the cymbal. Similarly, I'd be surprised if this impacts the cymbal's longevity. IMHO, you can play that cymbal with confidence and not worry about reliability problems. For perspective, I'll note that I've purchased a number of brand new cymbals (various rides and hats) from Sabian and Zildjian over the last year. None of these "brand new" cymbals is entirely defect free. There are small, minor flea bites on the edges and in one case (a 22 inch Sabian Artisan Light Ride), there is a small, circular area where the top layer of metal has flaked off - it's as though there was an air bubble in the casting. I've been pondering whether to return that particular ride to Sabian, but it sounds wonderful and there is quite a bit of variability between Artisan rides. So, I could send it back (no problem here, Sabian is fantastic about this and would swap it without question), but I might get back a "perfect" cymbal I don't like as much!

So... just for thought, I suggest the following. We cymbal fans tend to think of acceptable cymbals as having no defects. This is almost an impossibility with a product like a cymbal. There are so many variables that cause variances. And, on a gig, stuff happens. I was playing at a pub where we were pushed in beside a fireplace. It took until the second set for me to realize the thin crash cymbal above my ride was hitting the bricks - I'd been laying into this crash throughout the first set not realizing this! Oops! The edge of the cymbal did get a few dent-like marks. Did I retire this cymbal? Uh, no! I still use it now, many years later! It sounds just as good as it ever did and nobody notices the small dents except me (and I don't really notice them anymore either).

I realize you paid for something new and therefore that's what you want. In this instance though, if there's much more hassle getting this resolved, I'd leave negative feedback, keep the cymbal, and call it a day. Or, if eBay will refund your money and you're really not happy with the cymbal, just do that. No further need to speak with the seller because the item isn't as described. That's an instant refund when dealing with eBay/Paypal. Just as an experiment, the next time you're in a drum shop, sample brand new cymbals off the rack. You'll be surprised how many have small defects, scratches, flea bites, and so on. At a certain point, with cymbals, I think one just needs to roll with this sort of thing. I do hope you find satisfactory resolve with this issue.
 

pontiacrich

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Update:

after sending the seller the pictures I took, I received the following response (Note: bold and underlines are mine for keeping track if legal action against seller becomes necessary):

Thank you for emailing the pictures. These make it very clear there is no damage of any kind, much less a "dent" as you claimed . All the same, if you would like a refund I want you to be satisfied, even though my auction was a no refund listing and the only reason I was obligated to offer a refund was if the item was damaged in shipment.

At which point I escalated the issue up the chain at ebay. When I did that, I received this from the seller:

"No edges were exposed, the post office wouldn't even accept the package if they were. Two layers of cardboard protected the cymbal. There are no dents or damage in your photos. I'm a percussionist of 17 years, in sales 10+, on eBay most of the latter span. That's irrelevant since anyone can tell a dent from a lack thereof. Your boldfaced lying has sought to abuse my obligations as a seller. I clearly informed you that I will not offer a partial refund. This is at my discretion as per eBay policy. Feel free to verify that. If you would like to mail the cymbal back for a refund this is your last opportunity to agree to do so. It's hard to say why I even offer you this since I was only obligated to refund you if the item was damaged since my auction was "no returns." I guess I find it worth while to be the bigger person here and give you an idea how you should conduct yourself in the future. At this point, however, you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to defraud me. I'll report your conduct to eBay as needed so they can prevent you from trying this again with anyone else as they see fit. In 7 days they will decide my case against you. At that time, or next time I hear from you anything but that you're returning the cymbal or not, my offer for a refund comes off the table.

And this shortly afterwards on the 7th of July:

"I have followed eBay policy to the letter while the buyer is making up their own rules. Please help. Details are as follows: Buyer claimed item was damaged in shipment. I requested photographic evidence. Buyer provided photographs which show item has no damage. As a result I chose not to offer a partial refund. I will still offer a refund of sale and original shipping prices less my restocking fee if the buyer wishes, unless they continue to harass me and lie to me . I don't have offer a refund as per eBay policy since the item was not damaged in shipment and my auction was "no returns." Please review all messages between the buyer and myself as needed and let me know if I can send the pictures too. This buyer lied to me about damage and is trying to extort a partial refund and keep the item. This is fraud, a serious criminal act. It is a federal crime worth up to 1 million dollars fine and 30 years in jail. I need your help. I'm doing honest business and this buyer is trying to rob me."

On the 9th of July, I received this from ebay:

As a courtesy, we're covering your return shipping costs by providing you a prepaid label to return the item. It's important that you ship the item back in the next 7 days so you can get a refund.

Be sure to pack the item carefully and securely and to include all parts of the item. The seller must receive the item in the same condition that you received it for you to be eligible for your refund.


Thus, ebay responded to my escalation by agreeing to pay for shipping the cymbal back to the seller. This was unexpected but appreciated. I feel I acted in good faith throughout this transaction and was not trying to rob anyone. I was simply trying to get sompensation for what I first thought was damage to the cymbal in shiiping. Based on the comments I've read here, I looked carefully at the listing pictures and I can see the damage was present at the time of the listing. That being said, others are probably right that the cymbal probably would not have cracked due to the dent, and the shame of it all, is that I did like the sound of the cymbal.

Because of his belligerent attittude, I have since asked them to remove this seller from ebay...still waiting word on that.

Thanks for all your input. It was greatly appreciated. :occasion5:
 

TDM

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Pontiac Rich

That being said, others are probably right that the cymbal probably would not have cracked due to the dent, and the shame of it all is that I did like the sound of the cymbal. Because of his belligerent attitude, I have since asked them to remove this seller from ebay... still waiting word on that.
Seems like you were more interested in sticking to the seller than in the cymbal itself. I'm just... you know... sayin'. :-D
 

pontiacrich

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Pontiac Rich

That being said, others are probably right that the cymbal probably would not have cracked due to the dent, and the shame of it all is that I did like the sound of the cymbal. Because of his belligerent attitude, I have since asked them to remove this seller from ebay... still waiting word on that.
Seems like you were more interested in sticking to the seller than in the cymbal itself. I'm just... you know... sayin'. :-D
TDM

Sorry, but I must disagree with the implication that I in some way had it out for this particular seller from the start. I will start by saying, I enter each and every ebay transaction with full intent on following through. Otherwise, why would I bother?

In the beginning of this particular transaction, I had no history with this seller and no inclination to have a bad transaction whatsoever. When he told me the cymbal wasn't dented it left his posession, I believed him. His refusal to let me play it irked me a little, but I was willing to hold off and work this out. He requested pictures, and I obliged.

Once he started calling me a liar, yes, it got personal. However, I was still tring to hold my temper and find a solution that satisfied us both. However, when the seller kept ratcheting up the rhetoric, I finally had enough.

Thus, in the end, I did want to see this seller taken to task. Forgive me, I am human.
 

TDM

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Pontiac Rich,

Sorry, but I must disagree with the implication that I in some way had it out for this particular seller from the start. (snip) Thus, in the end, I did want to see this seller taken to task. Forgive me, I am human.
For brevity, I quoted only the bookends so I feel it's appropriate to underline I understand that throughout the sale you noted you had nothing but good intent and goodwill for all parties involved, and simply a desire to purchase a cymbal. I understand this and didn't ever think differently throughout your posts. Therefore, perhaps I shouldn't have joked about this in my reply to you. The key thing in my post was the big smiley emoticon, which seems to have been misunderstood.

I guess a subtext in my joke is that by the end the cymbal became irrelevant, due to the fact the seller caused you so much grief and frustration. I understand this too and I wish more sellers understood that they often create their own problems. A seller should know the condition of goods before they ship them and it's not a bad idea to document this with appropriate pictures taken immediately before shipping. In this case though, the seller's own pictures in the listing corroborate your claim so it's clear the seller wasn't and isn't paying attention. Not paying attention isn't an excuse for shipping faulty goods. Seller's should be aware of this too.

I apologize for my post as it seems to have come across as criticism of you. That wasn't my intent, though I can see (now) how this happened.
 

pontiacrich

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Pontiac Rich,

Sorry, but I must disagree with the implication that I in some way had it out for this particular seller from the start. (snip) Thus, in the end, I did want to see this seller taken to task. Forgive me, I am human.
For brevity, I quoted only the bookends so I feel it's appropriate to underline I understand that throughout the sale you noted you had nothing but good intent and goodwill for all parties involved, and simply a desire to purchase a cymbal. I understand this and didn't ever think differently throughout your posts. Therefore, perhaps I shouldn't have joked about this in my reply to you. The key thing in my post was the big smiley emoticon, which seems to have been misunderstood.

I guess a subtext in my joke is that by the end the cymbal became irrelevant, due to the fact the seller caused you so much grief and frustration. I understand this too and I wish more sellers understood that they often create their own problems. A seller should know the condition of goods before they ship them and it's not a bad idea to document this with appropriate pictures taken immediately before shipping. In this case though, the seller's own pictures in the listing corroborate your claim so it's clear the seller wasn't and isn't paying attention. Not paying attention isn't an excuse for shipping faulty goods. Seller's should be aware of this too.

I apologize for my post as it seems to have come across as criticism of you. That wasn't my intent, though I can see (now) how this happened.
Man am I a dolt! :blackeye: Of course that's what you meant. :oops: I just had to read the post a bunch of times.

I saw the emoticon and thought it was an attempt at sarcasm. You caught me after my first - very embarassing - drum kit lesson; I was not in a good mood. Thus, the fault is mine. Please accept my apology as well for the misunderstanding. :occasion5:
 

troutstudio

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These things can be tricky. I've been caught by this with cymbals before - a pair of hats and I never got satisfaction. You might be seeing some comment from eBay sellers here Rich. Lately eBay has really made it very difficult to protect yourself from dishonest buyers. They seem to have completely switched around. Obviously not the case here. I think this seller blew it. I bought a 1960's 20" thin 602 crash from a music store and it turned out to have a miniscule crack. I liked the cymbal - they are so rare and it sounded great anyway. I just shot them an email saying it had a tiny crack and mentioned it was worth less with the crack. He responded right away saying I could return it for a refund or take it for $100. I chose the $100. Now if I were to send it back; in Australia I would pay for that. Yes, I could ask the seller or file to recover, but I view this cost as the risk of buying on eBay.

Now when a seller calls you a liar and all that other crap, well, they deserve to get hammered, imo. The way I look at selling; if a buyer is not happy I don't want the sale. I just refunded $20 to someone from 5 years ago! But they paid the postage.

When I am in a dispute over anything; I concentrate on 2 things (which I learned from a wise man)

1. The remedy - that is; I think about the future, not the past.
2. What do I really want?

I find if I do that, it is less stressful for me. I am offering this advice to you not as a direct comment on this incident; but because I bet this did cause you some stress (as these things do) I'm glad you can put it behind you now.
 

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