What's a Rogers R 360?

poot

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shilohjim said:
Yeah, I'm positive that they are birch. And most likely painted either tan or silver on the inside.


Jim is correct. I've actually owned, restored, and played both early Yamaha and Rogers R-360 and R-380 kits from the late '60s. The only differences between between the brands are the badge and the lug design. They all have 5-ply birch shells with painted interiors and no re-rings. The R-360 kits had 6-lug snares, FTs, and BDs. The R380s had 8 lugs.

Again, they're very well-made shells with cool wraps but inferior tom mount systems. I'd agree they were intended for the budget market but were far superior in composition than any other Japanese drum made at the time.

This topic has been covered in many threads. Here's a link to perhaps the ultimate thread on the topic (Trixonian provided it earlier in this thread):

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=39688&hilit=r360

From that thread, here's a quote from forumite Mark (coopersvintagedrums), who has handled many, many R-360/R-380/early Yamaha kits. He's easily the most qualified to speak on the subject:

".... the Rogers R-360 and 380's from the late 60's-early 70's drums were extremely well made, had excellent chrome plating, beautiful finishes inside and out, used dependable Rogers Bantam strainers and unique lugs that were specially designed by a Rogers engineer (Joe Thompson?).

The bearing edges are smooth, nicely painted interiors (ala Gretsch), and they really sound great. The double tom mount tends to choke the sound a bit but it is very well made and quite intricate. The Rogers "R" series during this period was more than just an "entry level" set and deserves some respect. They were light years ahead of the other Japanese drum companies that were churning out sets in that era, like Pearl and Tama."
 

Elvis

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The interiors were painted - flat grey, not silver.
The chrome on my kit was nothing to write home about.
My kit would've been approximately 15 years old at the time I owned them and you could see it was already starting to flake/wear in places.
The lugs were very plain. Smooth all the way around and shaped somewhat like the Leedy beavertail, but the curve was less accute on the Rogers.
Maybe all of the other R-360's were 6-lug, but the F.tom on the Twister was 8-lug.
I remember that for sure and if you don't believe me, look at the picture I posted.
The kit was ok. "Serviceable", I'd say, but "light years ahead of its time"?
I'd have to say no to that. Actually fairly typical of a Japanese kit of that era...and that's neccessarily a bad thing, either.



Elvis
 

Elvis

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Dan Coluccio said:
Elvis,

I don't know what kind of wood was used in those drums. Whatever was cheaper that month, I suppose... :wink:

And yes, they were always intended as entry-level stuff....

Thank you, Dan.
That was always the impression I got, too.



Elvis
 

rondrums51

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Rogers 360 was an embarrassing attempt to capture the entry-level market. Yes, they were OK quality for the price, but compared to classic Rogers, forget it.

Yamaha made them. Yamaha has now bought the Rogers name, and the drums are garbage. It's an insult to Joe Thompson and the great legacy of this classic American name.

I feel myself going into another Jap rant.......No, I'll restrain myself........
 

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Elvis said:
Was there two toms on top of the bass drum that could only tilt and swivel on the post?
If so, that was the "Double Soul" kit.
They featured a clip-on, "concert tom" type of mount.
Elvis
Yup. I jammed on the set again last night, and it had a 16 too. I didn't realize that before. But someone had rigged up a Yamaha/rogers style ball mount with an aftermarket suspension system on top of that. The set has a nice complex oyster pearl wrap..much better than the cheap looking solid wine red, black or blue they use on low-end now.
 

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funmachine said:
Elvis said:
Was there two toms on top of the bass drum that could only tilt and swivel on the post?
If so, that was the "Double Soul" kit.
They featured a clip-on, "concert tom" type of mount.
Elvis
Yup. I jammed on the set again last night, and it had a 16 too. I didn't realize that before. But someone had rigged up a Yamaha/rogers style ball mount with an aftermarket suspension system on top of that. The set has a nice complex oyster pearl wrap..much better than the cheap looking solid wine red, black or blue they use on low-end now.
That might seem like blasphemy, replacing the original mount system. But it was so rickety and like Elvis says, has a limited range of adjustment. I disassembled one for cleaning; has over 40 parts.
The ball mount system works so much better.

Elvis, you are right. Some of the R-360s indeed had 8-lug drums. Learn something every day around here... :)
 

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poot said:
funmachine said:
Elvis said:
Was there two toms on top of the bass drum that could only tilt and swivel on the post?
If so, that was the "Double Soul" kit.
They featured a clip-on, "concert tom" type of mount.
Elvis
Yup. I jammed on the set again last night, and it had a 16 too. I didn't realize that before. But someone had rigged up a Yamaha/rogers style ball mount with an aftermarket suspension system on top of that. The set has a nice complex oyster pearl wrap..much better than the cheap looking solid wine red, black or blue they use on low-end now.
That might seem like blasphemy, replacing the original mount system. But it was so rickety and like Elvis says, has a limited range of adjustment. I disassembled one for cleaning; has over 40 parts.
The ball mount system works so much better.



Elvis, you are right. Some of the R-360s indeed had 8-lug drums. Learn something every day around here... :)
A perverse thought came to mind when i saw that picture. Can you assemble it within 60 seconds while blindfolded in a dark room, and then take it to the rifle range to hit a target at 100 yards?
 

poot

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leedybdp said:
A perverse thought came to mind when i saw that picture. Can you assemble it within 60 seconds while blindfolded in a dark room, and then take it to the rifle range to hit a target at 100 yards?[/b][/color]
I only attempted this because I had two tom posts and could look at the other one for reference. If my life depended on a rapid reassembly to firing condition, well... let's just say Charlie would have won.
 

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funmachine said:
Elvis said:
Was there two toms on top of the bass drum that could only tilt and swivel on the post?
If so, that was the "Double Soul" kit.
They featured a clip-on, "concert tom" type of mount.
Elvis
Yup. I jammed on the set again last night, and it had a 16 too. I didn't realize that before. But someone had rigged up a Yamaha/rogers style ball mount with an aftermarket suspension system on top of that. The set has a nice complex oyster pearl wrap..much better than the cheap looking solid wine red, black or blue they use on low-end now.
Yes, both the "Rock Solid" and the "Double Soul" came with 16" floor toms.
The kit you played on, the Double Soul, was a 20/12/13/16 setup featuring a 14x5 metal shelled snare drum (this, according to the catalogue).
Finish options for that kit were as follows: Blue Oyster, Black Oyster, WMP and Red Umber.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Poot,

I agree on your comments about ball mounts.
One of the better designs to come down the road over the years.
Simple, reliable and lots of adjustability.
My Ludwig uses a Gretsch unit that is a ball mount. Couldn't be happier with it.
That being said, I still have a soft spot for the Rail....maybe I'm just gettin' old. ;)
I like it mainly for clip mount. Just slide the tom on and go. Nothing could be more user friendly.
Would be nice to see an inexpensive drum kit that utilized a ball mount with a clip. I always thought that would be a good idea.

...anyway, on to the other reason I wrote this post...

I noticed the tom mount you posted shows that each tom is individually adjustable.
From the looks of the picture in the catalogue, which I've attached below, it appears that the two toms were solidly connected together, much like the old concert tom and conga mounts.
Do you know if that mount was changed at some point in time and if so, when did that occur?
Apologies in advance for the blurry pic. Resized much larger than original, in an attempt to show detail.


Elvis
 

poot

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Elvis said:
I noticed the tom mount you posted shows that each tom is individually adjustable.
From the looks of the picture in the catalogue, which I've attached below, it appears that the two toms were solidly connected together, much like the old concert tom and conga mounts.
Do you know if that mount was changed at some point in time and if so, when did that occur?
Apologies in advance for the blurry pic. Resized much larger than original, in an attempt to show detail. Elvis
Elvis,

I don't know if the twin tom post design changed. All the ones I've seen looked just like the pics I provided above. The toms were more or less solidly connected together, but with limited horizontal motion and even less vertical adjustment. Here's a pic I copped from Mark. It's a Yamaha, but the identical mount assembly as used on the Rogers R-360 and R-380 kits.
 

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The R-360's and 380's from the late 60's-early 70's were very well made drums. I've owned several and played them at lots of gigs. I loved them. When I said "light years ahead" I said they were light years ahead of other Japanese sets. And they definitely were. They blow away all Japanese sets from that era.

Anyone who says they were cheaply made junk with "luan" shells, poor chrome and crappy hardware has either never owned or played a set or never looked inside them. No, they were not as well made as Rogers swivomatic drums. Not even close.

The shells were DEFINITELY made of Birch. And very well made at that. Yamaha utilized a unique air pressure system for assembling their shells and they were perfectly round and extremely sturdy. Nice bearing edges as well. The chrome was excellent and if certain examples were flaking, they were probably not taken care of. How many Ludwig sets have you seen with the chrome flaking off?

While Yamaha and R-360/80 1960's-early 70's drums were not as well made as American drums, take a look at the quality of several other American brands from that era. Certainly the Great Gretsch drums had some questionable features, such as very flimsy hardware (Microsensitive strainer- Yikes!). Slingerland put out some poor quality stuff from time to time, as well. Some of the legendary Ludwig sets from the 1960's werent so hot, either. Talk about loose quality control.

I'm not knocking American drums of the 60's-70's but just because a drum was made in Japan doesnt necessarily mean it's junk.
 

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Mark,

Sit back and let the nice lady rub your shoulders. Take a couple of sips of your drink with the little umbrella in it and RELAX.
Its oh-kay.
Its just the internet.

I never said they were "junk" kits. I actually like a lot of the stuff that came from Japan, both then and now.
I think, overall, those kits get a worse rap than they deserve.

However, my comments about flaking chrome are based on experience, because (once again) I OWNED THE SAME TYPE OF KIT THAT IS BEING SOLD IN THE E-BAY AD.
That was the condition of the chrome on that kit, at the time I owned it (1986, so the kit would've been about 15 years old at that time).
If the chroming of those parts was so exemplary, then why did I notice an "average" amount of wear, at the time I owned them?
The rims on the rack tom and snare drum WERE extremely out of round, but that's not out of the ordinary for a triple flanged rim of that time, that would be found on a used budget/student series kit. Compared to current triple flanged rims, they were fairly thin.
Rogers and Ludwig were both known to use a very thin rim in those days (even for that time!). This why a lot of more experienced drummers tended to prefer them. Because of the effect they had on the sound of their drums.
FWIW, the rim on the floor tom was not bent and one reason why I ended up keeping that particular drum and adding it to the other kit I owned at the time.
My remarks concerning shell construction were based on the fact that a typical lower end Asian-made drum, both then and now, tends to use a shell constructed of Luan.
If the shell is actually made from Birch, that's fine. Its an honest mistake, since both Luan and Birch tend to share a lot of general sound characteristics (and please don't tell me I'm wrong on that point. I've spent enough time with shells of differening lay-ups to know that much).
As for your "light years ahead" comment, I have to disagree.
I did not find the general construction of the kit I owned (bent rims, aside) to be any better than anything else that came out of Japan during that period, and as I stated before, that's not neccessarily a bad thing.
FWIW, my "other kit" was a CB-700, made at a time when the old Swvo knockoff tom mounts were still being used, and that was a nice kit, too.
In the end, the 14" floor tom from my Twister made for a nice addition to that CB kit.



Elvis
 

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All this discussion about a second tier Rogers drum set brings one to the conclusion that one may wish to save one's money for a first tier Rogers drum set. The parts are available (not that they fail regularly, other than B&B lugs) and deals can be had right now.
 

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I am completely relaxed. I was unaware that my tone was otherwise.

I still maintain, however that 60's-early 70's Yamaha and R-360/80 drums were way ahead of Japanese drums from the same era in terms of construction, attention to detail, and quality of materials.

The shell construction of the typical Pearl set was terrible and cant even come close to the quality Birch shells. The luan shells were crudely made, with splintering wood and non-existant bearing edges. If one were to put any amount of pressure on a luan shell, it would probably break. Often, a reinforcing ring was added around the middle to help stabilize the delicate thin wood.

Sorry, but I disagree with the idea that luan and birch share similar sound characteristics.

The Yamaha/ R-360/80 pearl finishes were superior as well.

Concerning bent rims, they usually become that way from abuse or improper tuning, no matter what brand they are. I had a Red Ripple Twister set a few years ago and the hoops were great- Gleaming chrome and perfectly round. Maybe someone replaced the original rims on your set with Ludwig rims. :p

The typical hardware of a 60's Japanese set like Pearl doesnt even come close to that of a Yamaha or R-380. The strainers on Yamahas were excellent and basically were copies of Ludwig strainers. The R-360/380 snare drums used actual Rogers strainers which worked perfectly. The snare mechanisms on Pearl drums and other brands were extremely cheap and unreliable. Same with their internal tone controls. Joe Thompson designed the lugs and floor tom brackets on the R-360/80 drums so that says a lot.

Of course, these are only my opinions based on my experiences and I respect the opinions of others.
 

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Mark said:
I am completely relaxed. I was unaware that my tone was otherwise.

I still maintain, however that 60's-early 70's Yamaha and R-360/80 drums were way ahead of Japanese drums from the same era in terms of construction, attention to detail, and quality of materials.

The shell construction of the typical Pearl set was terrible and cant even come close to the quality Birch shells. The luan shells were crudely made, with splintering wood and non-existant bearing edges. If one were to put any amount of pressure on a luan shell, it would probably break. Often, a reinforcing ring was added around the middle to help stabilize the delicate thin wood.

Sorry, but I disagree with the idea that luan and birch share similar sound characteristics.

The Yamaha/ R-360/80 pearl finishes were superior as well.

Concerning bent rims, they usually become that way from abuse or improper tuning, no matter what brand they are. I had a Red Ripple Twister set a few years ago and the hoops were great- Gleaming chrome and perfectly round. Maybe someone replaced the original rims on your set with Ludwig rims. :p

The typical hardware of a 60's Japanese set like Pearl doesnt even come close to that of a Yamaha or R-380. The strainers on Yamahas were excellent and basically were copies of Ludwig strainers. The R-360/380 snare drums used actual Rogers strainers which worked perfectly. The snare mechanisms on Pearl drums and other brands were extremely cheap and unreliable. Same with their internal tone controls. Joe Thompson designed the lugs and floor tom brackets on the R-360/80 drums so that says a lot.

Of course, these are only my opinions based on my experiences and I respect the opinions of others.
Were Yamaha the first Japanese company to make high end drums?
 

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Mark said:
IThe shell construction of the typical Pearl set was terrible and cant even come close to the quality Birch shells. The luan shells were crudely made, with splintering wood and non-existant bearing edges. If one were to put any amount of pressure on a luan shell, it would probably break. Often, a reinforcing ring was added around the middle to help stabilize the delicate thin wood.
I can attest that my early 70s Pearl kit has questionable shell quality - the floor tom is out of round and the bearing edges rough, plus the interior wood grain is pretty rough as well. Nice blue sparkle wrap, though - I still have 'em, kept in cases all this time, they still look almost new. I also hate the metal bass rims.

There's a R-360 set in a local music store, BTW, that they're selling on consignment - I think asking $550, WMP wrap is yellowed, it's a bit beat up. I considered it, but ... is that a decent price? Four piece, 12-14-20 with some metal snare (nothing decent), metal bass rims.
 

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Mark said:
I am completely relaxed. I was unaware that my tone was otherwise.
Uh, oh-kay.

Mark said:
The shell construction of the typical Pearl set was terrible and cant even come close to the quality Birch shells. The luan shells were crudely made, with splintering wood and non-existant bearing edges. If one were to put any amount of pressure on a luan shell, it would probably break. Often, a reinforcing ring was added around the middle to help stabilize the delicate thin wood.
You're referring to an older shell design that used paper thin shells. I know, my first kit was like that.
The shells from the era that we're referring to are a thicker, non-reinforced shell.
Luan won't break if you put any "pressure" on it, any quicker than any other shell. They're all laminated wood shells, so they're made to be flexible yet strong.
My old CB-700's had just as "nice" of a shell as my old Rogers R-360 kit had.
Still, I never said any of those kits had "junk" shells. I don't consider that wood, or the quality of their construction, to be "junk".

Mark said:
Sorry, but I disagree with the idea that luan and birch share similar sound characteristics.
I hear it quite clearly. This is why I often tend to describe the sound of Luan as "Aggressive Birch". If you can't, that's not my fault, but you are welcome to your opinion.

Mark said:
Concerning bent rims, they usually become that way from abuse or improper tuning, no matter what brand they are. I had a Red Ripple Twister set a few years ago and the hoops were great- Gleaming chrome and perfectly round. Maybe someone replaced the original rims on your set with Ludwig rims. :p
Well of course that's why. I never suggested anything else.
These were budget/student line kits, so guess who the majority of owners are going to be...... :idea1: (yeeeess)
True, the rims could've been replaced by a former owner, but I wasn't commenting that it was due to any fault of the manufacturer, either, as you seem to be aluding to.
As for the Ludwig remark, actually the comments I always heard in my younger days concerned Rogers rims. I didn't know that Ludwig also made a very thin rim until years later.
The more experienced drummers coveted Rogers rims back when I was first getting into drums, because they often allowed a cold and rather dry sounding drum to "open up" and gain a slightly fatter and warmer sound.

Mark said:
The typical hardware of a 60's Japanese set like Pearl doesnt even come close to that of a Yamaha or R-380. The strainers on Yamahas were excellent and basically were copies of Ludwig strainers. The R-360/380 snare drums used actual Rogers strainers which worked perfectly. The snare mechanisms on Pearl drums and other brands were extremely cheap and unreliable. Same with their internal tone controls. Joe Thompson designed the lugs and floor tom brackets on the R-360/80 drums so that says a lot.
Oh man, you're gonna keep beating this dead horse until its hamburger, aren't you?
Pretty much ALL drum hardware was made of a fairly cheap "pot metal" back then. Where you been?
None were really any worse or better than any other. It just depended on how well you took care of it.
If Joe Thompson designed the hardware for those R-360 drums, that's great. That doesn't neccessarily give it any "God-like" qualities over any other hardware.though. In fact, I always hated the fact that the F.tom legs need a freakin' drum key to adjust them. Why not use regular ol' T-bolts like everyone else does?...and sticking straIght out of the lug? Worst location possible. They were forever catching on things.
As for quality, once again, nothing "spectacular". Serviceable, yes, but nothing to write home about.

If this is your favourite brand, fine. More power to ya. There's a Twister kit going for $1700 on E-bay right now. The link is at the beginning of this thread. You better hurry up and buy it before someone else nabs it....because if you didn't, that would be....a crime. :eek:
However, have enough respect for other people's experiences with the same series of drum, so as not to use their comments to try to make yourself look better.
Say what you know about it, then leave it alone. If someone asks you something about it, fine that's a different story.




Elvis
 

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