Whats With All These Rivets?

retrosonic

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Guys, please take a look at this Luddy cannister throne.

There is a TON of rivets down one side. Is this really how Ludwig built these? I have a Luddy cannister throne from like 2004 and I dont think it has those rivets.

So, how hard would it be to rewrap this? Is there a way to remove the rivets?

thanks!

Retro
 

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healthie1

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I think this was a time restraint reason. My ludwig floor toms have the rivets, too. Not sure on my years, but WMP as well.
 

JDA

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there's tools to remove rivets (pretty sure) short of a sharp chisel and hammer)
 

K.O.

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The rivets were something they did for about 4 years from roughly 1980 to 1984 (ish). They had to change wrap suppliers because the bigger chemical companies (DuPont and Monsanto) stopped making drum wrap. They were stuck with one supplier (It wasn't Delmar) and had no other choice for a supplier. This new wrap had a tendancy to shrink more severely than previous supplies and would pull apart at the seam after not too long a period of time. Ludwig looked for a solution and some brainiac on the engineering staff hit upon the mechanical fix of locking the seam down with the rivets. There were two problems.., 1: The rivets looked bad (although they tried their best to hide them in all promotional materials) and 2: it didn't really work that well as the wrap often still shrank and pulled apart but the rivets actually made for a worse mess.

Bill Ludwig addresses this whole mess in his autobiography. At the time they were rather impressed with their "solution" and thought they had the jump on their crosstown rival, Slingerland, who was buying the same wrap from the same supplier. They figured Slingerland was going to face the same issue and felt they had come up with a fix first. For whatever reason (different glue or application technique at the factory maybe) Slingerland did not experience this issue, at least not to any great degree. Ludwig must have either found a new wrap supplier or figured out another fix because the rivets disappeared in time for their 75th anniversary in 1984.

Kind of one of the low points in Ludwig history.
 
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bassanddrum84

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The rivets were something they did for about 4 years from roughly 1980 to 1984 (ish). They had to change wrap suppliers because the bigger chemical companies (DuPont and Monsanto) stopped making drum wrap. They were stuck with one supplier (It wasn't Delmar) and had no choice for a supplier. This new wrap had a tendancy to shrink more severely than previous supplies and would pull apart at the seam after not too long a period of time. Ludwig looked for a solution and some brainiac on the engineering staff hit upon the mechanical fix of locking the seam down with the rivets. There were two problems.., 1: The rivets looked bad (although they tried their best to hide them in all promotional materials) and 2: it didn't really work that well as the wrap often still shrank and pulled apart but the rivets actually made for a worse mess.

Bill Ludwig addresses this whole mess in his autobiography. At the time they were rather impressed with their "solution" and thought they had the jump on their crosstown rival, Slingerland, who was buying the same wrap from the same supplier. They figured Slingerland was going to face the same issue and felt they had come up with a fix first. For whatever reason (different glue or application technique at the factory maybe) Slingerland did not experience this issue, at least not to any great degree. Ludwig must have either found a new wrap supplier or figured out another fix because the rivets disappeared in time for their 75th anniversary in 1984.

Kind of one of the low points in Ludwig history.
You would think a easier fix would be make a bigger over lap at the seams?
 

retrosonic

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Thanks JDA for the video and thanks K.O. for the write up. For me, with limited space and no tool bench, removing the TON of rivets from that throne would be very difficult.

Thanks for the help!
 

rsq911

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My black diamond Pearl kit is a rivet one. But I am lucky, no pulling! They even color matched the rivets too!

On the concert toms, and marching tenors, you would find the rivets (screws later on), holding the aluminum shell protectors on.

When I recovered my tenors, I was able to remove the rivets with small needle nose pliers, with zero damage! The rivets only go in about two plys.

During this era, they also were using water based lacquer (just like the auto industry), and new adhesives that sometimes didn’t.
 

Northamusi

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I have a buddy who special ordered a Buddy Rich style kit with a 26 inch kick drum in the early 1980s. He waited about six months for it. When it arrived, the seam with the rivets was ON TOP of the kick drum, near the tom holder. It looked disgusting, but I didn’t say anything b/c I didnt want him to feel bad. As I recall, about three weeks after he got it, one of the bass drum spurs cracked so he sent it back. Eventually Ludwig replaced the drum.
 

retrosonic

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Norty: thats INSANE that they allowed the drum go out to a customer like that. I'm glad your friend got a new one. I'd have been upset too.
 

wflkurt

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The rivets were something they did for about 4 years from roughly 1980 to 1984 (ish). They had to change wrap suppliers because the bigger chemical companies (DuPont and Monsanto) stopped making drum wrap. They were stuck with one supplier (It wasn't Delmar) and had no other choice for a supplier. This new wrap had a tendancy to shrink more severely than previous supplies and would pull apart at the seam after not too long a period of time. Ludwig looked for a solution and some brainiac on the engineering staff hit upon the mechanical fix of locking the seam down with the rivets. There were two problems.., 1: The rivets looked bad (although they tried their best to hide them in all promotional materials) and 2: it didn't really work that well as the wrap often still shrank and pulled apart but the rivets actually made for a worse mess.

Bill Ludwig addresses this whole mess in his autobiography. At the time they were rather impressed with their "solution" and thought they had the jump on their crosstown rival, Slingerland, who was buying the same wrap from the same supplier. They figured Slingerland was going to face the same issue and felt they had come up with a fix first. For whatever reason (different glue or application technique at the factory maybe) Slingerland did not experience this issue, at least not to any great degree. Ludwig must have either found a new wrap supplier or figured out another fix because the rivets disappeared in time for their 75th anniversary in 1984.

Kind of one of the low points in Ludwig history.

Ludwig has been dealing with wrap problems for years. WMP, as well as BDP and oyster black has caused lots of problems for Ludwig. They had it pretty rough in the 90's with wrap as for a while they weren't gluing the wrap down. I special ordered a brand new Ludwig set in 1990 as a high school graduation present to myself. I went with WMP and it shrunk and cracked everywhere. After two wrap jobs from Ludwig, I was told those colors were being discontinued and the set was wrapped by Ludwig in mahogany cortex. I sold it after that. From what I understand now is that they use a process called wrap-tite that is supposed to high bond the wrap to the shell. I was pretty bummed about that 1990 set as they sounded great and I loved the look of that WMP. I pretty much went full on vintage for a lot of years after that.
 

retrosonic

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Wflkurt: what a bummer! You would think that ludwig would have been able to solve that problem even if it meant buying wrap from overseas.
 

fun2drum

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Ludwig has been known to throw things together without considering its appearance. If it was functional then they figured "who cares what it looks like". Examples would be to mix B/O badges with Keystone badges on the same drum set. Or drilling vent holes without any measurement - resulting in wildly off-center holes on some drums. I own examples of both.

I do think the rivets were extreme even for Ludwig. It looks like somebody there would have seen the light and stopped them before those things went into production. It's interesting history at any rate.
 

backtodrum

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It looks like it started to de-laminate and someone got carried away with a pop rivet gun. Are you sure those are factory? I am too picky, there is no way I would have purchased that hidokus looking throne, functional or not?
 

retrosonic

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Ok, So THIS is funny!

I was just watching Buddy Rich live in Berlin 1984 on You Tube. At this point, Buddy was using that 1940s set of Radio kings that had been refurbished and given to him. But......it looks like he is using his old Ludwig throne....because at 14:54 you can see all the rivets!!!!

Check it out!

14:54
 


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