Who would say 22/16/13 is more versatile than 20/14/12?

swarfrat

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Put me down for 24/13/18 for my next kit. I always had my 16 on the hairy edge and the 18 is well above lowest pitch and still thunders.
 

paul

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I remember playing a NYW trio gig where we all met each other at the venue, introduced ourselves, and started playing. I was using 22/12/15, and the bassist commented, "That's a pretty big bass drum for jazz."

The venue called the booking agent the next year and asked for the same group back. That set has been at my big band leader's house for nine years now, and is right at home. I didn't set out to build that configuration, but those were the drums I found.

As for the initial question, I think I'd prefer 22/13/16. Big drums can always be tuned high, but expecting small drums to fit in a lower sonic space, as in a rock setting, is often asking too much.
 

ThomasL

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Part of why I came to this thread is that I never have these questions! They never cross my mind at all. So I come here trying to understand and discover who these minimalist drummers are :) Wanting one versatile kit to do everything?? HA, who are these people?

Drummers are traditionally collectors and hoarders of all things drums. Just look at the number of people here who have more than 10 kits, more than 25 snares!

Yes, but they have 10 kits in the same sizes: the most versatile sizes!

;-)

As long as you're happy with a four-piece kit, having two is not that big a deal.
 

paul

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thing about Jazz gigs ...is they're on the spot...they're a call 3 (or 2) days (or 1 day) previous; the idea of hefting a 14x22
squeezing it in some of the oddest corners...Just doesn't appeal/
(they do pay well tho)

Where is this odd kingdom in which jazz gigs pay so well? Historically, my best paid bands have mostly been country. And as for them being last minute calls, that does not reflect my own experience at all. In fact, I'm playing with a septet that is booking into 2022.

Finally, can we dispense with the myth that a 14x22 is substantially larger than a 14x20?, and has to be 'squeezed' into stage corners? Your ride cymbal is likely to have a bigger effect on your footprint than your bass drum.
 

Cauldronics

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Before having a 14” floor tom, I thought I would love it more than a 16” floor but once I got it, I didn’t. I know it might be different from drum to drum and sound-wise and tuning range but having a 16” floor next to me feels much better, not sure why!

I admit I like 12” rack tom more than 13” but usually standard configurations come in 22/16/13 and 20/14/12. I would love a 22/16/12 though.

For the bass drum, same thing, I thought I’d love a 20”x14” but my 22”x14” feels so much better to play and much more presence.

I am pretty sure that a 20/14/12 will deliver with no problem but I am starting to feel and think that 22/16/13 is the most versatile configuration, it can be the go-to in any situation if you can control your playing. And maybe that’s why 22/16/13 is the industry standard.

I know this is subjective but any thoughts?
The 13 can easily tune into 12 range and lower (14), but I don't find any 12s that tune down to 14 range, which makes the 13 that much more versatile. Depending on which way you go, the 16 can then be tuned to a more musical interval with the 13, than it would if it was a 14. So I understand why the 13/16 standard works well. 12 and 14 will simply make that interval higher in pitch, which means it all depends on what works best for the music (as usual).

22 versus 20? That would be more of a preference and doesn't depend much on the interval between the toms. I think that choice is made by how convenient the sizes are to gig with, and obviously the 20 is 2 inches easier to lift and schlep. Sound wise, the preference for greater punch and body from the 22 often dictates that choice.

For me, it's a 22 or 24, but I have yet to own a 20, so I don't know what I might be missing. The extra schleppage doesn't bother me more than not having a bigger sound would.
 

JDA

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Where is this odd kingdom in which jazz gigs pay so well?
Pittsburgh and surrounding area (pro tip: Helps to have a Name (big name) (sax) Out front Fronting; a 3, 4 or 5 pc. group..
Jazz gigs -for me- have always paid better - on an individual basis- than classic Rock etc.
(the clientele is richer have to say
 
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JDA

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Reminds me of the story (I always tell) about 12 or more years ago I subbed for Roger Humphries (yea that one) the first half of a gig as he had a prior engagement that cut into the start of this one. At the end of the afternoon (3 hour Sunday gig) he comes over to me and hands me a $100 bill.

I'm like "o No Roger you don't have to give me the whole thing"
he looks at me like I have cereal for brains. (he's a kind man really)

That.. was half. $200 for 3 hr. .. impromptu* "jazz" gig.
*the rehearsal of repertoire is playing the gigs over the years;
 
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5 Style

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Coming from someone who plays some rock stuff, but maybe has the "soul of a jazzer," I feel that a properly tuned 20" bass drum is big enough to get a nice fat sound for backbeat type of music. Though, I've never done it myself (I have a bop kit with an 18" bass drum for that), I've heard 20" bass drums tuned with a tighter, more open, hollow sort of sound also work well for jazz. A 22" or larger for that would seem to start to get boomy when tuning it for an open sound... which is to say that a 20" bass drum strikes me as the most versatile. It can rock or jazz, very well, depending on the tuning (and heads, of course).

I'm fine with a 4 pc configuration for whatever type of music that I play (even though I have extra toms for a couple of kits, which I never use) and whatever type of kit, I find that a 12" rack tom is ideal. For jazz and to pair with an 18" bass drum, a 14" floor tom seems like a logical choice. I now have a "rock kit" with a 20" bass drum that came with a 14" floor tom and being using to 16" toms (like the one with my '70 Slingerland kit), it's seeming a bit small for the sound that I like. I could warm up to it though and the size for that thing isn't as critical for me as either the bass drum or the rack tom. Ultimately, if I was ordering a new "rock kit" with a 20" bass drum, I might just split the difference with the floor tom size and get a 15" one (probably ideal for me).

I guess that if I was in a really loud band and one that played the kind of gigs where the bass drum wasn't always going to be miced, I might want something bigger than a 20" bass drum, but as long as the music isn't ear splittingly loud and things can be miced, I'll never miss not having a bigger bass. At this point in my life though, I wouldn't play in a screamingly loud band anyway... not my thing.
 

Jazzhead

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I agree with 20/16/12 setup as well. Dave king who plays Jazz (avant garde) prefers a 16” floor. Maple custom yammies..18 bass 16 floor 12 tom, go figure!
 

Paiste18

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Before having a 14” floor tom, I thought I would love it more than a 16” floor but once I got it, I didn’t. I know it might be different from drum to drum and sound-wise and tuning range but having a 16” floor next to me feels much better, not sure why!

I admit I like 12” rack tom more than 13” but usually standard configurations come in 22/16/13 and 20/14/12. I would love a 22/16/12 though.

For the bass drum, same thing, I thought I’d love a 20”x14” but my 22”x14” feels so much better to play and much more presence.

I am pretty sure that a 20/14/12 will deliver with no problem but I am starting to feel and think that 22/16/13 is the most versatile configuration, it can be the go-to in any situation if you can control your playing. And maybe that’s why 22/16/13 is the industry standard.

I know this is subjective but any thoughts?
I think it depends on what kind of music you are playing. Rock music really demands bigger shell sizes. I have 24/13/16/18. Those are go to sizes for rock. 22" bass drums are versatile. I know Sonor has some 3 piece kits that come in 22/12/16 if that's your ideal set up. However I'm not sure what your price range is. I could search around and see if I can find one in your price range. Sonor is pricey but a great product.


Actually this Tama is spot on for you! Check it out.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...lacquer-3-piece-shell-pack-molten-brown-burst
 

mtarrani

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I think it depends on what kind of music you are playing. Rock music really demands bigger shell sizes. I have 24/13/16/18. Those are go to sizes for rock. 22" bass drums are versatile. I know Sonor has some 3 piece kits that come in 22/12/16 if that's your ideal set up. However I'm not sure what your price range is. I could search around and see if I can find one in your price range. Sonor is pricey but a great product.


Actually this Tama is spot on for you! Check it out.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...lacquer-3-piece-shell-pack-molten-brown-burst
I have a 22-12-14&16 (FT) + 6.5x14 snare drum kit. I never play it. I absolutely cannot stand 22" bass drums, but the kit does sound good.
 

JDA

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(guys point to Joe Morello as if -besides Buddy maybe Louie - was the only jazz drummer that ever lived )
Brubeck Quartet don't know If I'd call it bebop was very structured more along the MJQ lines..
 

Phantomlimb777

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Part of why I came to this thread is that I never have these questions! They never cross my mind at all. So I come here trying to understand and discover who these minimalist drummers are :) Wanting one versatile kit to do everything?? HA, who are these people?

Drummers are traditionally collectors and hoarders of all things drums. Just look at the number of people here who have more than 10 kits, more than 25 snares!

In drumming more is better! Get one of everything, or many of everything, and then keep adding, I highly recommend it!

gabo

I have one or two snares and one kit most of the time. Part of the fun is making it work. I do have all the sizes in question, so it’s not an issue at all.
 

Phantomlimb777

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(guys point to Joe Morello as if -besides Buddy maybe Louie - was the only jazz drummer that ever lived )
Brubeck Quartet don't know If I'd call it bebop was very structured more along the MJQ lines..

I only bring up my point and won’t speak for others.
I think the lot of you are being way too finicky and just need to play.
 

wayne

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For sure. A lot of drummers will never encourage other players regardless of what or how they play.
 

Browny

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20/14/12 fits in my Mazda 3.
26/13/16 fits in my Hyundai i30 hatch.

Can actually fit the 26/13/16 and the 22/13/16 with a couple of snares, cymbal bag and 38” hardware bag. It’s a little tight, and I probably wouldn’t need to take2 full kits with me at any time, but it can be done…
 

Markkuliini

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I only bring up my point and won’t speak for others.
I think the lot of you are being way too finicky and just need to play.

Joe Morello has been brought up already several times on this thread, as if him playing 13/16/22 would counter almost all the other jazz drummers using smaller kits.
Mentioning him so many times only accentuates how unpopular that size is in jazz.

It's bit difficult to play on drum forum thread, se we need to focus on the writing.
 
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Swissward Flamtacles

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The first post asks for subjective opinions and a discussion, so why is this finnicky? I mean, this place is mostly about obsessing over details like number of snare wires and cymbal weights. :)
Of course, you should play whatever you like best. Joe Morello and Mel Lewis liked lower tunings, other Jazz drummers like high tunings and drums that don't ring and growl for an hour.
I like the point about the mics, though. If you use mics anyway, you can get a big sound out of small drums. If you also want to play without a PA and prefer higher tunings, a big set isn't as comfortable. Yes, you can make them work, too, but that wouldn't enable browsing the internet for new drums in different sizes. ;)
 


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