Why Do Folk Music Drummers Have Such Great Reputations?

Vistalite Black

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I've long been curious about how certain drummers have developed such great reputations playing folk music?

Jim Keltner -- Bob Dylan, Richard Thompson, J.J. Cale. (#38 on Rolling Stone Top 100 Drummers of All Time).

Vinnie Colaiuta -- Joni Mitchell, Sting, Patti Austin (#39 on Rolling Stone Top 100)

Steve Gadd -- James Taylor, Paul Simon (#24 in Rolling Stone's Top 100 ).

Not denying that they're great drummers who play a variety of styles, but, for most people, are more closely associated with the easy listening side of the classic rock spectrum, but I have a hard time understanding how they become so prominent -- and, for those I mentioned, they essentially earned their reputations 40 years ago.

Clearly, someone like Tomas Haake of Meshuggah, Dave Lombardo of Slayer or even Travis Barker play a style of music that's far more intense and physically demanding -- which makes it easier for me to recognize their skills than someone who's playing behind Bob Dylan or Patti Austin.

Yet, on this forum in particular, lots of people seem to regard a particular set of 70s drummers with demi-god status. Since I can't appreciate Sting's particular gifts, help me understand what the audience gets from a drum perspective from a legendary drummer playing If I Ever Lost My Faith in You or Wrapped Around Your Finger?
 

Paradiddle

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I would listen to the music to get a full understanding. And this has been said to you countless times on this forum, but you seem to confuse physicality of drumming with either skill, or musicality. Which is a shame because you are really missing out.

PS - none of those drummers are "folk music drummers".....

 

jaymandude

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One of the great things about John Madden was that he would always recognize the things that went unnoticed by the audience that was only watching the stars.

He would give credit to the left guard that made an important block to free Barry Sanders or Walter Payton for 48 yard run. Pick any sport, the sacrifice to put a runner in scoring position on third, the guy who sets the pick

I’m not saying you’re missing this aspect of it but I will say that the ability to interpret a song, to make a songwriter comfortable, and to achieve hopefully the vision that the songwriter and producer are trying to portray is much more subtle and inside than the harder rock and metal drumming that you might be used to
 

Vistalite Black

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If you can't see just what Steve Gadd (to mention just one of your list) brings so ANY genre he plays in then I am at a loss to respond.
I watched this. Seems to be en encore and a basic shuffle mostly. He does a good job with it, but seems bored.
 

JDA

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Vista I'll mention this the three drummer you mention Gadd Keltner- started with Jazz- Vinnie a bit younger but similar. I think when you look at drummers you need to look back a little further into their beginnings- at what prepared them and their ability later, to play anything any fusion of styles. It's their control over the drumset that allows them to play with Chick Corea one year Carly Simon the following year etc.
That doesn't mean a new fresh 18 year old could not step into some of these spots but when talking about the specific foundational playing properties of older cats. It's all to mostly swing. Hate to start a fire but the drum set is was a jazz innovation pret-ty much unarguably All drummers drum set players arguably come from that whether acknowledged or not. Even the Meshugga guy. It's all jazz (could be argued- If you're sitting down utilizing four limbs. May be far far far away from it but the root is; begins -for all drum set players- there
 
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cplueard

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I've long been curious about how certain drummers have developed such great reputations playing folk music?

Jim Keltner -- Bob Dylan, Richard Thompson, J.J. Cale. (#38 on Rolling Stone Top 100 Drummers of All Time).

Vinnie Colaiuta -- Joni Mitchell, Sting, Patti Austin (#39 on Rolling Stone Top 100)

Steve Gadd -- James Taylor, Paul Simon (#24 in Rolling Stone's Top 100 ).

Not denying that they're great drummers who play a variety of styles, but, for most people, are more closely associated with the easy listening side of the classic rock spectrum, but I have a hard time understanding how they become so prominent -- and, for those I mentioned, they essentially earned their reputations 40 years ago.

Clearly, someone like Tomas Haake of Meshuggah, Dave Lombardo of Slayer or even Travis Barker play a style of music that's far more intense and physically demanding -- which makes it easier for me to recognize their skills than someone who's playing behind Bob Dylan or Patti Austin.

Yet, on this forum in particular, lots of people seem to regard a particular set of 70s drummers with demi-god status. Since I can't appreciate Sting's particular gifts, help me understand what the audience gets from a drum perspective from a legendary drummer playing If I Ever Lost My Faith in You or Wrapped Around Your Finger?
I'll stir the pot with you as I'm in complete agreement. Gene Hoglan makes my list every time given his incredible musicality and flawless feel in every song I've heard him in, yet you won't see him brought up outside of metal circles. The easy and obvious answer is that the average age here tends to be in the range that was listening to these artists that they performed for as kids/young adults and they are immensely talented drummers, so they're just grabbing on what they know and associating what they perceive as the best, especially in terms of musicality as musical taste is subjective so their more talented drummers who cut a check playing rock/folk will hit the lists and the lists of many younger people as these are the guy pushed by the previous generations. I'm guessing lists compiled in places that metal, modern rock, and the common rockband seem to have a stronger presence like Europe might be more to your taste (but maybe that's only my perspective from the US and I'm wrong there).

Either way, I'm more or less saying this because I expect the usual slur of answers about not understanding musical aspects of it (a subjective thing to a degree) or the ones that's popped up already claiming that you're "missing something" and I'd like a proper answer myself. Telling someone they're missing something isn't an answer, it's an excuse to avoid the question. I can't speak for VB but when people answer they should give a reason why Keltner should be considered better than Barker or Haake and potentially some examples or comparisons to back it up.

If you can't see just what Steve Gadd (to mention just one of your list) brings so ANY genre he plays in then I am at a loss to respond.
Seems you lost enough of your response to not explain your view, but maintained enough to not understand the question and be condescending.
 

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I listen to plenty of death/black/industrial metal, and enjoy some the bananas drumming, but also appreciate simple-yet-effective.

This is one of my favorite songs, ever.

I don't think it would be very hard to find a better guitar player, drummer, singer, or recording engineer. Don't think that would improve the song.

I think the general attitude among the drummers on the forums I frequent (and people in general) is that what they liked when they were 15-25 is what is good, and what people liked before then was stodgy and after then is awful garbage. I've seen grown-ass men willing to die on "Peter Criss is a better drummer than Questlove!" hills.

No minds will be changed.
 
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JDA

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When the Riverboats combined blues notes with classical instruments, and the drummer sat, and the bass drum pedal was invented and the hi hat stand developed to clasp the two cymbals and the drum set was born. from that point to today- there's a thread that runs thru it all- that every drummer that sits and uses the four limbs- whether they know it acknowledge it or not- is a part of. Now that stance from 1920 to 2020 one man operating multiple percussion instruments- has been applied in every avenue of what we're talking about
 
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Paradiddle

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I'll stir the pot with you as I'm in complete agreement. Gene Hoglan makes my list every time given his incredible musicality and flawless feel in every song I've heard him in, yet you won't see him brought up outside of metal circles. The easy and obvious answer is that the average age here tends to be in the range that was listening to these artists that they performed for as kids/young adults and they are immensely talented drummers, so they're just grabbing on what they know and associating what they perceive as the best, especially in terms of musicality as musical taste is subjective so their more talented drummers who cut a check playing rock/folk will hit the lists and the lists of many younger people as these are the guy pushed by the previous generations. I'm guessing lists compiled in places that metal, modern rock, and the common rockband seem to have a stronger presence like Europe might be more to your taste (but maybe that's only my perspective from the US and I'm wrong there).

Either way, I'm more or less saying this because I expect the usual slur of answers about not understanding musical aspects of it (a subjective thing to a degree) or the ones that's popped up already claiming that you're "missing something" and I'd like a proper answer myself. Telling someone they're missing something isn't an answer, it's an excuse to avoid the question. I can't speak for VB but when people answer they should give a reason why Keltner should be considered better than Barker or Haake and potentially some examples or comparisons to back it up.



Seems you lost enough of your response to not explain your view, but maintained enough to not understand the question and be condescending.
I know Gene. I used to work at the studio they rehearsed at in Orange County as they were "getting big". What a sweetheart and an amazing drummer in that genera.

Did you listen to the Megadeth link I posted. That's Vinnie. Name another guy that plays with Chick, Sting, Sade, Trucks, (everyone in the world) and a band like Megadeth. Oh you can't...because there aren't any. Gadd and Keltner share similar massively prodigious careers (even playing with Sinatra).

People don't hire them because they are cool or en vogue - people hire them because they are the best in the world at playing music.

Most of the records they were hired on were recorded when making a record cost serious money. Today's direct to the PC pro tools generation cannot understand the financial commitment of making a record and wanting the best on it (so we don't have to do 100 takes).

If you guys can't hear that and "figure that out" then I don't know what to say. So yes - you ARE missing the music. In a broader sense. Not a speed/math/metal/thrash whatever sense. There are amazing musicians in all genres. Look beyond your comfort level. The biggest and fasted isn't always the best athlete - Cam Newton is 100X the physical specimen that Brady is - but Brady is the best in the world.

But of course we all knew this was what VB wanted in this thread. I'm only commenting because I need a brain break at work.

I'm not old, and I'm not young, but I can't stand notes for notes sake. Make music. Play for the song - in any genre - and remember art is not a competition.
 

JDA

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No in one aspect regarding VB. He is searching for answers- he shouldn't be mocked, right?- I don't believe he is doing this to "flame" He legitimately does not understand the thread that runs thru all drummers, all drummers that sit at a drum set. There's a thread that runs thru each and every from anywhere on the planet. (From at any time..)
Instead of seeing the different "boxes" drummers are "seen" in See the commonality. VB will get this over time.
 

BennyK

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Lou Reed ( New York ) was speed and coke and stp

Jackson Browne ( LA) was thai sticks nepalese temple balls and peyote

When Haight Ashbury folded up , the survivors invented Earth Shoes and clomped off back to nature where everything went slower ... Manson stayed behind for the leftovers . Any body with the ability to put together a musical sentence were drafted into the Geffen's ever growing army of mellowbeings and they needed drummers professional enough to accommodate that pocket .

There ya go , now you understand .
 
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Soulfinger

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a) Drumming is not a sporting event. Physical demands don´t mean anything. If it fits the music, it is good.
b) Calling Keltner and especially Gadd and Colaiuta "folk music drummers" is like calling Stevie Wonder "a guy who wrote a birthday song".
c) Those guys are regarded as legends because they paved the way. They were pioneers of their craft, even if it may not be obvious anymore.
d) Some people actually have a mind open enough to appreciate Joni Mitchell as well as Slayer. Just because someone likes Colaiuta doesn't mean he can´t like Lombardo.
e) +1 to what JDA said.
 

JDA

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I've long been curious about how certain drummers have developed such great reputations playing folk music?
What happens is the drummers already have a reputation. Second, the artists the Front men and women hire these players. Via the Popularity of the front Men or Women said drummers are thrust up another notch in the eyes of people who seek to look.
It's like you are Carly Simon or James taylor or name one, hiring Expert Electricians to assist building their house at that particular moment in time.. (ha.
Their (the drummers) reputations precede them..
Alternately any of those could have pulled a deserving unknown artist (drummer) off the street. I've heard that happens..Think of Jaco walking up to Joe Zawinul saying I'm going to be playing in your band someday and Zawinul saying "yea ok kid"..or Miles saying to 15 year old Williams "sit down and listen"..Then it happens/comes together/ later
 
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cplueard

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I thought I gave a pretty legitimate response, but when you start tossing around the word “ better” I start to lose interest in a legitimate discussion. But until then ....

I’m not sure if you guys are just looking for validation from an old white guy forum or are just stirring the pot. If you think the forum skews old, white, jazz , and classic rock that we grew up with that’s fine. It probably does. I personally love Gene Hoglan but I don’t listen to that music. At 57 I want something less aggressive with a smoother voice. That’s just me, and yeah James Taylor can be a snooze fest for a lot of folks.

Is there metal drummers forum? I ask that seriously. You guys can have your better drummers over there
You just said that you think what they do is more subtle and "inside" and didn't provide any actual examples measurements or reason to it. Those are just mostly vague terms with loose interpretations of what that means that are relative to the person listening. I think there are vast subtleties to many rock and metal performances, and I thin k there are many folk/classic rock/jazz performances that aren't so much subtle as they are just hamming it up.

You can view "better" as getting recognized or any positive way you want to rank it, It's just a general term.

Your tastes are perfectly fine and there is 0 thinks wrong with what you like to listen to. I can't speak for VB but personally I want a more thought out answer with comparisons and reasoning, and that's hard to do for something as subjective as music.

This isn't about just rock/metal. There's a wealth of gospel, hip hop, RnB, reggae, dance, and electronic music drummers that are just dripping with incredible ability that see no sunlight despite being part of decently well known groups. It's easier to speak from rock/metal for me because I listen to that genre more, but this isn't a one genre issue.

I know Gene. I used to work at the studio they rehearsed at in Orange County as they were "getting big". What a sweetheart and an amazing drummer in that genera.

Did you listen to the Megadeth link I posted. That's Vinnie. Name another guy that plays with Chick, Sting, Sade, Trucks, (everyone in the world) and a band like Megadeth. Oh you can't...because there aren't any. Gadd and Keltner share similar massively prodigious careers (even playing with Sinatra).

People don't hire them because they are cool or en vogue - people hire them because they are the best in the world at playing music.

Most of the records they were hired on were recorded when making a record cost serious money. Today's direct to the PC pro tools generation cannot understand the financial commitment of making a record and wanting the best on it (so we don't have to do 100 takes).
Again, there is no actual answer to the question here. You're just using a career as a reasoning as to why these guys are good. You're not explaining anything, you just threw out some broad information about their careers and said "Interpret their art the way I do".

I understand the financial commitment of records across generations. so your statement doesn't really apply and doesn't answer the question.

If you guys can't hear that and "figure that out" then I don't know what to say. So yes - you ARE missing the music. In a broader sense. Not a speed/math/metal/thrash whatever sense. There are amazing musicians in all genres. Look beyond your comfort level. The biggest and fasted isn't always the best athlete - Cam Newton is 100X the physical specimen that Brady is - but Brady is the best in the world.

But of course we all knew this was what VB wanted in this thread. I'm only commenting because I need a brain break at work.

I'm not old, and I'm not young, but I can't stand notes for notes sake. Make music. Play for the song - in any genre - and remember art is not a competition.
Not knowing what to say is a main issue here. I personally have asked for a specified type of answer, and it's not being addressed. Instead you seem to be going off about physicality and the amount of notes used, two things that haven't been brought up. This seems more to be a misunderstanding about the question which is what I wanted to avoid myself. If your answer is a simple "They had/have abundant careers" that's fine, but it's not really satisfactory as an answer because it doesn't address the difference between these "demigod" drummers and the others as far as actual ability or even taste. It's reminiscent of when people ask for specific parameters on a snare recommendation only to have them ignored and have half the people say "Supra" or "Acrolite" when they didn't want one of those to begin with.

And I'm in the same boat with the brain break part. This makes it go in wayyyyy different directions and gets me fired up, helps me perform better and feel refreshed. Ultimately I don't think i'll get my answer but the conversation is enjoyable. Plus there are things being said that aren't answering me but are good perspectives to read.
 

Paradiddle

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What do you want to know. Type a specific question. Several people have answered the obvious question of "why these guys work and have their entire career". But that doesn't seem to answer what you need.

So perhaps I'm not understanding. Type away and I'll do my best.
 

Vistalite Black

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What's Vinnie Colaiuta doing here? I mean aside playing from Stewart Copeland's part, more or less faithfully, and perhaps overemphasizing the snare hits (at about 3:15), seemingly out of boredom.

 

dcrigger

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I'll stir the pot with you as I'm in complete agreement. Gene Hoglan makes my list every time given his incredible musicality and flawless feel in every song I've heard him in, yet you won't see him brought up outside of metal circles.
Maybe that's because he seems to have zero credits outside the metal genre. I went AllMusic.com and plugged in his name - his credit list complete explained why he isn't known out side the world of metal.

Which means it has little to do with the age of this board - beyond the fact that metal skews young demographically. Though not entirely - which where these big sweeping presumptions run afoul.

I can't speak for VB but when people answer they should give a reason why Keltner should be considered better than Barker or Haake and potentially some examples or comparisons to back it up.
But is anyone ever saying that - "Keltner is better than Barker". I don't see such statements being met with any more support than the claims your trying to make - in this case, pitching that a relative unknown player like Gene Hoglan should be held to the same level of popular recognition of as Steve Gadd or Jim Keltner.

I'm not saying this is about popularity - but it is about consensus.

And consensus comes from effecting a lot of players - usually more players than exist in any one genre.

Steve Gadd captured the fusion players attention when he appeared in Chick Corea's sequel to RTF on the "Leprechaun" album, then mainstream pop ears, appearing on Paul Simon's reinvention "Still Crazy After All These Years" (including appearing in the mainstream motion picture featuring that whole band "One Trick Pony"), then demanding their attention further with the unprecedented giant, "give the drummer some" sections in the title track of Steely Dan's Aja (a place where over-the-top drum solos simply didn't exist), then grabbing the ears of all the mainstream jazz players with Chick Corea's Friends album - all of this in the space of 1975-1978 - while also playing on 165 (!!!!!) other albums - across all of those genres.

So why has your guy not reach that status - because he hasn't earn it.

How do I no - because if he had, he'd be there.

I get you recognize his "incredible musicality and flawless feel" - I have clients that say that about me. And you're right - and sure, in some ways, my clients are right.

But tastes vary - and some tastes are very discerning. And the individually VB has singled out here (in such an inane manner) have repeated, consistantly satisfied some of the most discerning and varied tastes throughout the art of music.

Again using my self as an example - I have had clients that are also the clients of all three of these players - particularly Vinnie and Keltner. I've played on albums that Vinnie has also played on. Granted I played on more "album tracks" - tracks deemed less important - or in one case, where it was a tune I had recorded before and knew how to play it exactly as the artist wanted it played.

But when it comes to taking new music and turning it into a great sounding record - sure I can do that, but I have zero problem admitting that Vinnie, Keltner, Gadd, J.R., Harvey, Hal (back in the day), etc. were/are lightyears better at it... period. No question. I've had the privilege to witness many of them do it up close -in the studio.

In every case, profound experiences. Their playing skills, the deep, deep, deep feel to their time, their remarkable musical intuitions, skill s at making think sound good on "tape", and their unbelievable people skills...

In every case, an amazing thing to witness the living embodiment of one's goals sitting right there before you demonstrating in real life exactly how it is done.

So I'm sorry you feel somehow discriminated against - that your tastes and assessments don't line up with the world of drumming at large. I get it. As a huge fan of odd meter music at an early age, I railed for years against a world that didn't share my feeling that about half of all music should be in 7 - simply because I believed it make everything a lot more satisfying. But alas it wasn't so.

There is simply no getting around that metal is a fringe genre - but it is a HUGE fringe genre (much larger the team I had behind my 7/8 idea).

Speaking as a jazz-fusion player at heart - Thomas Haake caught a loy of our ears with is mind boggling odd-grouping Hertas in the BD's over 4/4 track a few years ago. Drew much attention and respect for me... But then there's the fact that metal will never truly when me over because (like most Prog Rock) there is zero improvisation. Which is fine - but that still puts it in par with classical music - both genres capable of great progressive compositional feats.

But that only works for me so long - the jazz man in my heart also eventually asks "OK, so now you can play that incredibly complex structure of a composition...so now what can you do with it??" And sadly from metal comes the answer "Well, play it over and over"

But my inner jazz man is enamored with a history of players that take equally complex - rhythmically and harmonically - compositions and dig into the many possible variations they suggest, unearthing all of the many possible ways of making said composition yet even more interesting - and they do it in real time.

So in hearing metal's answer to my jazzman's question - while appreciating metal just like he appreciates tons of other non-jazz-influenced genres, his response is invariably.... boring.

And my only reason for bringing this up is to say - it is OK to be in the minority - to be on the fringe of the herd. I've lived my entire live there - but if I had been pissed about, thought it was somehow unfair - I would've never been able to work with the wide variety of artists and musicians I have so enjoyed playing with.

To the question, what music do you like best? Just because the majority doesn't agree with you - doesn't mean they are saying you're wrong. They just don't agree with you.
 

LouPLant

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They make the music sound better than 99.9% of other drummers could.
Pick a "folk" song with drumming you like and record yourself drumming to it, and then compare your feel to the legend. That might give you some more insight as to why they have their reputation.
 

jaymandude

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You just said that you think what they do is more subtle and "inside" and didn't provide any actual examples measurements or reason to it. Those are just mostly vague terms with loose interpretations of what that means that are relative to the person listening. I think there are vast subtleties to many rock and metal performances, and I thin k there are many folk/classic rock/jazz performances that aren't so much subtle as they are just hamming it up.

You can view "better" as getting recognized or any positive way you want to rank it, It's just a general term.

Your tastes are perfectly fine and there is 0 thinks wrong with what you like to listen to. I can't speak for VB but personally I want a more thought out answer with comparisons and reasoning, and that's hard to do for something as subjective as music.

This isn't about just rock/metal. There's a wealth of gospel, hip hop, RnB, reggae, dance, and electronic music drummers that are just dripping with incredible ability that see no sunlight despite being part of decently well known groups. It's easier to speak from rock/metal for me because I listen to that genre more, but this isn't a one genre issue.



Again, there is no actual answer to the question here. You're just using a career as a reasoning as to why these guys are good. You're not explaining anything, you just threw out some broad information about their careers and said "Interpret their art the way I do".

I understand the financial commitment of records across generations. so your statement doesn't really apply and doesn't answer the question.



Not knowing what to say is a main issue here. I personally have asked for a specified type of answer, and it's not being addressed. Instead you seem to be going off about physicality and the amount of notes used, two things that haven't been brought up. This seems more to be a misunderstanding about the question which is what I wanted to avoid myself. If your answer is a simple "They had/have abundant careers" that's fine, but it's not really satisfactory as an answer because it doesn't address the difference between these "demigod" drummers and the others as far as actual ability or even taste. It's reminiscent of when people ask for specific parameters on a snare recommendation only to have them ignored and have half the people say "Supra" or "Acrolite" when they didn't want one of those to begin with.


And I'm in the same boat with the brain break part. This makes it go in wayyyyy different directions and gets me fired up, helps me perform better and feel refreshed. Ultimately I don't think i'll get my answer but the conversation is enjoyable. Plus there are things being said that aren't answering me but are good perspectives to read.
Maybe "subtle" isn't the right term. But for singer songwriters like Ray Lamontagne maybe that IS an appropriate term. Explain to me, or to us, a subtle nuance that we might be missing in metal ?

Moving on.. You used " better". That's not a general term It has a specific definition to most people.

You talk about drummers that don't get "sunlight". Where don't they get sunlight ? Here ? Magazines ? Is that important ? Certainly in their genre they must.

Anyway, be well
I'm out
 
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