Why Do Folk Music Drummers Have Such Great Reputations?

[dcrigger]

First off - you are doing great communicating in this topic IMO These are not simple, nor easy distinctions. And even when we can get an agreement as to what we are specifically talking about - then we're still likely to disagree about it. So let's see if I can put my cents in here and there...

I don't even like Suicidal Tendencies but I feel like Eric Moore is everything Lombardo is and so much more. Going into even more detail I could talk about why I think it's more musical and what's going on. This is something that can be viewed objectively and experienced.

I'll pass on this one as they are two players that I simply don't know enough to comment on.

Another example would be Colaiuta to Freese with Sting. I wish I had the time to pull up videos for comparison but while I respect Colaiuta I think Freese just objectively feels and interprets the songs in a more pleasing way to my ear.

Now this one I can relate to because I've been in the chair similar to Freese in a different situation -

Elvis Costello and Burt Bacharach did an album together in, I don't know... 1998. Jim Keltner played drums on that album (except one track that I think Chris Parker recorded in NYC).

Anyway when it came time for the promotional tour - Elvis had no band at that time, so Burt enlisted the bulk of his touring band to do it. So along with a different string section in each city - we prepped to play eight concerts in LA, NYC, Washington DC and London... something like that. Plus we were also slated to record a Session On West 54th TV special that eventually landed on DVD - so I actually really well done recordings of me playing pretty much the entire album and of course, the original.

So how did I fair? I believe, really good. Some places not as good - and some actually being better - though that was mainly because the touring band had a fair amount of rehearsal plus a bunch of soundcheck/rehearsals (we had to rehearse with the new string section every city) plus a number of concerts before the TV taping. This amounted to quite a bit of playing those tunes - and sometimes that's just what it takes to get a song to the next level - time and repetition.

By contrast - for most tunes the original recording band had - on half day (about 4 hours) per tune and that was it. There were exceptions to this - but generally it was going with the first version that met Elvis and Burt's expectations... then on to the next tune.

So what is fundamentally different between what Keltner and I contributed to that project? I had his performances to build on - to either copy outright or interpret to be more "me" or interpret to meet new ideas and feeling that Elvis and Burt had about it - now, three months later.

Jim did not have that - he had Burt playing the piano and... what to play was up to him.... But not up to him really --- because the job in the studio is figuring what to play that meets the artist's expectations. And I can tell that is rarely an easy task. Because everyone is aware that everything matters and no one less than the artist/producer. How it feels? Is that the right pattern? The right volume? Is that fill too much? Too little?

Most non-recording musician would quickly be at the "What difference does it make?" long before the first break?

But session players are well aware that this could be done in 10 minutes or 10 hours... on one song... and possibly come back the next day and try it some more.

Like me Josh Fresse made up none of the those parts originally - even where he played different parts - they grew from the previous parts, not from a blank slate.

So if from only hearing two Sting concerts, one with Vinnie and one with Josh, it would be understandable to equate one player with the other. But the same exact thing good be said of me and Keltner.

But sorry as musicians we really are expected to have listened to a lot more than that - particularly when the concert only demonstrated to each player play decent or even great drums behind Sting. Why would Sting have a player that couldn't do that? But with no slight to Josh, there are dozens of players that could that - at that level.

But record Ten Summoners Tales??? Not and have the album sound like that? Nope. There are many session greats that could have made great albums out of that music, for sure. Sting had already been (after the Police) recording with some of them... Omar, Manu... and they would've play that music great... but it would be different. I would bet Steve Gadd would've made that album interesting... actually so would have Keltner.

But here's the rub... I can't make that assumption of Josh, probably more now than then - because Josh has built an impressive discography in recent years... And it's versatile enough - but versatile doesn't completely cut with folks at Sting's level... or Elvis Costello's level... they want someone capable of playing whatever they want (of course) and someone willing and able to take direction so they can get what they want, but they also want someone with a sound, a subtle uniqueness - someone for all of their versatility has a recognizable sound... and a track record that proves that unique sound is commodity (not just an oddity)

That's why your comparison is correct in its very limited scope... but accessing each player overall produces entirely different results.

That's at least why i feel there can be something gained in this conversation. I generally stay away from topics that are more grating to people because I don't care that much 99% of this time. I want god reasons and comparisons for things like why Porcaro's shuffle is considered the bar When Brad Wilk can nail that feel incredibly well himself. Or why Bill Ward is spoken so highly of when Tommy Clufetos is everything he ever was and more in my book.

You seem to be giving no credit to anything other than "the ability to play the part"

Clufetos didn't play on a single Sabbath album that matters (one in 2017) - he quite possibly learned to play Black Sabbath music listening to Bill Ward.

You are aware that these iconic drums came up with these parts - they played parts where no existed before. I hate the "wrote" when applied to this - because it isn't writing or composing - but it is creating. From nothing but their taste, experience and musical sensibilities.

There is so much to being a drummer than simply being able to play stuff - what a player chooses to play is just - I would say, far more important.

Any I hope that maybe answers a bit of what you seem to be asking...

This is an easy open book discussion on talking about things and perspectives that can influence any of us as artists that's having trouble getting off the ground because of different people saying that (in my case) I don't get something instead of actually showing what I supposedly don't get. If you have the time and effort, I'd love to hear reasoning and examples of why these people are better based on their playing, that's the type of answer I want from people. If the time and effort isn't there then that's totally fine and there's no ill will, I don't expect people to feel they need to take time out to do that. It's just not a good answer to a question that's hard to phrase.

 

[Johnny D]

This is so odd, at first I thought the title was sarcasm. Really. Steve Gadd, Vinnie Colaiuta and Jim Keltner... Folk Music drummers? Really? It's obvious the OP isn't familiar with their respective bodies of work. Fair enough. But at the very least he should do some research before putting these guys in "one" bag. It's kinda funny.

 

[lamartee]

Here's two of the names you mentioned and the other guy is no slouch either.
Folk drumming?

 

[Tornado]

This is so odd, at first I thought the title was sarcasm. Really. Steve Gadd, Vinnie Colaiuta and Jim Keltner... Folk Music drummers? Really? It's obvious the OP isn't familiar with their respective bodies of work. Fair enough. But at the very least he should do some research before putting these guys in "one" bag. It's kinda funny.

He knows perfectly well their body of work. This is like when he distills Terry Bozio's work down to a few years with Missing Persons.

 

[MrDrums2112]

Perhaps, for the OP, it's more about the kind of music you like and connect with, rather than trying to understand why the particular drummer is good/popular, etc.. For example: I like to think of myself as pretty open minded when it comes to music, and I can recognize the talent and the chops. I know that guys like Gene Hoglan, or Travis Barker, or Tomas Haake might be terrific, generous human beings, but if I don't like the music they play, I won't give them much thought, and might even wonder why other people like them so much or think they are so great. The super hard hitting and the lightening chops just are not very musical to me. However, I love the Rolling Stones, and Charlie Watts is a musical hero to me. See what I'm getting at? I can appreciate the talent and hard work it takes to play like these drummers, but I'm going to pay the most attention to the ones that play the music I enjoy the most.

 

[jaymandude]

First off - you are doing great communicating in this topic IMO These are not simple, nor easy distinctions. And even when we can get an agreement as to what we are specifically talking about - then we're still likely to disagree about it. So let's see if I can put my cents in here and there...



I'll pass on this one as they are two players that I simply don't know enough to comment on.


Now this one I can relate to because I've been in the chair similar to Freese in a different situation -

Elvis Costello and Burt Bacharach did an album together in, I don't know... 1998. Jim Keltner played drums on that album (except one track that I think Chris Parker recorded in NYC).

Anyway when it came time for the promotional tour - Elvis had no band at that time, so Burt enlisted the bulk of his touring band to do it. So along with a different string section in each city - we prepped to play eight concerts in LA, NYC, Washington DC and London... something like that. Plus we were also slated to record a Session On West 54th TV special that eventually landed on DVD - so I actually really well done recordings of me playing pretty much the entire album and of course, the original.

So how did I fair? I believe, really good. Some places not as good - and some actually being better - though that was mainly because the touring band had a fair amount of rehearsal plus a bunch of soundcheck/rehearsals (we had to rehearse with the new string section every city) plus a number of concerts before the TV taping. This amounted to quite a bit of playing those tunes - and sometimes that's just what it takes to get a song to the next level - time and repetition.

By contrast - for most tunes the original recording band had - on half day (about 4 hours) per tune and that was it. There were exceptions to this - but generally it was going with the first version that met Elvis and Burt's expectations... then on to the next tune.

So what is fundamentally different between what Keltner and I contributed to that project? I had his performances to build on - to either copy outright or interpret to be more "me" or interpret to meet new ideas and feeling that Elvis and Burt had about it - now, three months later.

Jim did not have that - he had Burt playing the piano and... what to play was up to him.... But not up to him really --- because the job in the studio is figuring what to play that meets the artist's expectations. And I can tell that is rarely an easy task. Because everyone is aware that everything matters and no one less than the artist/producer. How it feels? Is that the right pattern? The right volume? Is that fill too much? Too little?

Most non-recording musician would quickly be at the "What difference does it make?" long before the first break?

But session players are well aware that this could be done in 10 minutes or 10 hours... on one song... and possibly come back the next day and try it some more.

Like me Josh Fresse made up none of the those parts originally - even where he played different parts - they grew from the previous parts, not from a blank slate.

So if from only hearing two Sting concerts, one with Vinnie and one with Josh, it would be understandable to equate one player with the other. But the same exact thing good be said of me and Keltner.

But sorry as musicians we really are expected to have listened to a lot more than that - particularly when the concert only demonstrated to each player play decent or even great drums behind Sting. Why would Sting have a player that couldn't do that? But with no slight to Josh, there are dozens of players that could that - at that level.

But record Ten Summoners Tales??? Not and have the album sound like that? Nope. There are many session greats that could have made great albums out of that music, for sure. Sting had already been (after the Police) recording with some of them... Omar, Manu... and they would've play that music great... but it would be different. I would bet Steve Gadd would've made that album interesting... actually so would have Keltner.

But here's the rub... I can't make that assumption of Josh, probably more now than then - because Josh has built an impressive discography in recent years... And it's versatile enough - but versatile doesn't completely cut with folks at Sting's level... or Elvis Costello's level... they want someone capable of playing whatever they want (of course) and someone willing and able to take direction so they can get what they want, but they also want someone with a sound, a subtle uniqueness - someone for all of their versatility has a recognizable sound... and a track record that proves that unique sound is commodity (not just an oddity)

That's why your comparison is correct in its very limited scope... but accessing each player overall produces entirely different results.






You seem to be giving no credit to anything other than "the ability to play the part"

Clufetos didn't play on a single Sabbath album that matters (one in 2017) - he quite possibly learned to play Black Sabbath music listening to Bill Ward.

You are aware that these iconic drums came up with these parts - they played parts where no existed before. I hate the "wrote" when applied to this - because it isn't writing or composing - but it is creating. From nothing but their taste, experience and musical sensibilities.

There is so much to being a drummer than simply being able to play stuff - what a player chooses to play is just - I would say, far more important.

Any I hope that maybe answers a bit of what you seem to be asking...

There's no doubt I'll be quoting some of your post in the coming years. Well done..

 

[dale w miller]

I've long been curious about how certain drummers have developed such great reputations playing folk music?

Jim Keltner -- Bob Dylan, Richard Thompson, J.J. Cale. (#38 on Rolling Stone Top 100 Drummers of All Time).

Vinnie Colaiuta -- Joni Mitchell, Sting, Patti Austin (#39 on Rolling Stone Top 100)

Steve Gadd -- James Taylor, Paul Simon (#24 in Rolling Stone's Top 100 ).

Not denying that they're great drummers who play a variety of styles, but, for most people, are more closely associated with the easy listening side of the classic rock spectrum, but I have a hard time understanding how they become so prominent -- and, for those I mentioned, they essentially earned their reputations 40 years ago.

Clearly, someone like Tomas Haake of Meshuggah, Dave Lombardo of Slayer or even Travis Barker play a style of music that's far more intense and physically demanding -- which makes it easier for me to recognize their skills than someone who's playing behind Bob Dylan or Patti Austin.

Yet, on this forum in particular, lots of people seem to regard a particular set of 70s drummers with demi-god status. Since I can't appreciate Sting's particular gifts, help me understand what the audience gets from a drum perspective from a legendary drummer playing If I Ever Lost My Faith in You or Wrapped Around Your Finger?

It’s basically appreciating music in a different light. Growing up in the 80’s in an area where shredding was the only way someone was declared as good, it came off really shallow. Being someone who still cannot play fast even with all my years of training, I found it hard to show my side of what I appreciate.

Athletics on a musical instrument is the easiest thing to appreciate. It’s no different than sports which is why sports are so much more popular than the arts. The problem with it on my end is no matter how fast or vastly coordinated some of these players parts may be in which my jaw drops, I get bored real quick.

Personally, I’d rather watch Michael Phelps.

 

[Mongrel]

....*snip*...Personally, I’d rather watch Michael Phelps.

I LOVE the Mamas and the Papas!!!

 

[jtpaistegeist]

IMO the reputation is very heavily influenced by the perceived sophistication and academic importance of the artist. As much as I enjoy many metal drummers, they will never get the attention that someone like Colaiuta or TW has. My experience studying jazz at the University showed me very quickly how revered certain artists, albums, and genres are. The jazz/classical artists are given way more credence and looked at as being sophisticated, enigmatic, esoteric, genius, and what they all aspired to be, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Metal, rock, country etc...was looked at as low-brow music for the common people. Untrained, unwilling , unable to sit in the same room...
Magazines, musicians, non-musicians, publishers, teachers, universities, all want to be seen and thought of as being sophisticated and "on the level" to their respective audiences and mainly their peers. By no means am I saying that all jazz or classical players are like this, but often, it is the overall vibe in that crowd.

 

[gwbasley]

I haven't had the patience to read through the 3 pages of lengthy posts but it all seems pretty simple to me. Several artists were mentioned and dubbed as "Folk Musicians", as if this were some lower form of music. I'm sorry, but a Hit is a Hit no matter what style of music it may be, and these artists were all "Hit Makers".

Now consider the drummers mentioned. They were all well established studio men at that time.

If YOU were the A&R guy entrusted by, oh, lets just say Columbia Records, who do you hire for the session...?

It's just a guess, but I'm thinking you would have hired the pros who would get the job done without laying down any "clams".

 

[Houndog]

DC Rigger , you nailed it sir .

 

[Tmcfour]

I've long been curious about how certain drummers have developed such great reputations playing folk music?

Jim Keltner -- Bob Dylan, Richard Thompson, J.J. Cale. (#38 on Rolling Stone Top 100 Drummers of All Time).

Vinnie Colaiuta -- Joni Mitchell, Sting, Patti Austin (#39 on Rolling Stone Top 100)

Steve Gadd -- James Taylor, Paul Simon (#24 in Rolling Stone's Top 100 ).

Not denying that they're great drummers who play a variety of styles, but, for most people, are more closely associated with the easy listening side of the classic rock spectrum, but I have a hard time understanding how they become so prominent -- and, for those I mentioned, they essentially earned their reputations 40 years ago.

Clearly, someone like Tomas Haake of Meshuggah, Dave Lombardo of Slayer or even Travis Barker play a style of music that's far more intense and physically demanding -- which makes it easier for me to recognize their skills than someone who's playing behind Bob Dylan or Patti Austin.

Yet, on this forum in particular, lots of people seem to regard a particular set of 70s drummers with demi-god status. Since I can't appreciate Sting's particular gifts, help me understand what the audience gets from a drum perspective from a legendary drummer playing If I Ever Lost My Faith in You or Wrapped Around Your Finger?

Might be the sheer volume of material they end up on and then they get a good rep in the scene itself. A "Hey so and so is great and solid and good to work with I have a new project give him a call." Kinda thing. Just a guess on my part. Although Lombardo is on a lot of different projects I think a more accurate metal equivalent would be Hoglan or Tempesta. Those guys are on everything!

 

[RogersLudwig]

Does Mickey Jones qualify in this category? Just asking.

 

[K Walter Frank]

This was an interesting thread. I'm new to this forum but I'm certainly not new to drumming. I've been sitting behind a kit for over 50 years. I don't make a living as a drummer but I'd like to say I make a "loving" as a drummer. Any chance I got to sit in with a band, any genre I grabbed it. Country, Jazz, Blues, Rock and yes even "Folk" and the common thread was I was there to support my fellow musicians just as they were there to support me. Whether they need a hole or a buzz roll I played what the piece needed. Collaboratively, we made music. Yes , there are drummers that can play fills and beats that I haven't learned (yet) It makes them more practiced, versatile and accomplished. Not better. We guys in the back, have to stick together. We need to mentor and praise. I love listening to a performance that's greater than the sum of it's parts, regardless of the genre because then I know that everyone involved "had each other's back.

 

[cplueard]

Few drummers can actually play this with the right feel, let alone WRITE the part and come up with the groove and phrasing. And it's the hook. The entire driving force behind one of Paul's biggest hits.

That's just one example, but few drummers become the song as frequently as the guys that VB mentioned (and others). It's not just luck, as Dave said it's an enormous understanding of music, the instrument, and the communicative part of playing behind an artist. I think it's worth mentioning that you are asking for a comparison between guys in bands and session guys. There is, IMO, a vast difference in required skillset between those two.

Again, not to beat the horse, but if you can't hear how accomplished these musicians are then I don't know that "explaining" it will help. Guys like Ted Williams didn't need someone to explain why they were the best, their stats showed it. They proved it, in their profession, in the real world. Vinnie, Gadd, Keltner, etc. have ALL proven it time and time again in the real world. You can chose to ignore it, or not, but the proof is there.

Wanted to reply to this and not just leave you hangin' thinking I was startin' stuff and running off. Had some people at work take vacation so I've had a full plate and little to no ability to jump back on.

I appreciate the more detailed description of what you feel elevates these guys. I think the more nail on the head for my own personal comparison comes with you talking of the skillset differences between studio and live. I just saw the Toto concert down where I'm at the past saturday night with Shannon Forrest on drums and while his performance what technically impressive I felt it lacking as a live drummer. Maybe it was just the evening for him but it felt exactly like he'd likely play in a studio where everything was reserved, controlled, and for lack of better terms dry and sterile. While I went into this conversation wanting comparisons I think that's something i've learned about myself personally as far as taste goes. I strongly dislike the drummer Mike Heller in a live setting for the same reason, very technically proficient but just remarkably sterile.

It's not that I don't hear how accomplished these guys are, it's that I want more context for it from a performance standpoint. It's easy to talk about the greatness of someone like Steve Gadd, it's harder to break down what's going on there and that's more of what I was aiming for. How you choose to explain it may or may not ever be enough for what I'm looking for, but I appreciate the effort.

 

[jaymandude]

Wanted to reply to this and not just leave you hangin' thinking I was startin' stuff and running off. Had some people at work take vacation so I've had a full plate and little to no ability to jump back on.

I appreciate the more detailed description of what you feel elevates these guys. I think the more nail on the head for my own personal comparison comes with you talking of the skillset differences between studio and live. I just saw the Toto concert down where I'm at the past saturday night with Shannon Forrest on drums and while his performance what technically impressive I felt it lacking as a live drummer. Maybe it was just the evening for him but it felt exactly like he'd likely play in a studio where everything was reserved, controlled, and for lack of better terms dry and sterile. While I went into this conversation wanting comparisons I think that's something i've learned about myself personally as far as taste goes. I strongly dislike the drummer Mike Heller in a live setting for the same reason, very technically proficient but just remarkably sterile.

It's not that I don't hear how accomplished these guys are, it's that I want more context for it from a performance standpoint. It's easy to talk about the greatness of someone like Steve Gadd, it's harder to break down what's going on there and that's more of what I was aiming for. How you choose to explain it may or may not ever be enough for what I'm looking for, but I appreciate the effort.

What would have made the Shannon Forrest experience more rewarding to you ? Should he have taken more risk ? Been not as clean with the facility? Played music that was more raw and less refined ?

Serious question btw.

 

[Mongrel]

Wanted to reply to this and not just leave you hangin' thinking I was startin' stuff and running off. Had some people at work take vacation so I've had a full plate and little to no ability to jump back on.

I appreciate the more detailed description of what you feel elevates these guys. I think the more nail on the head for my own personal comparison comes with you talking of the skillset differences between studio and live. I just saw the Toto concert down where I'm at the past saturday night with Shannon Forrest on drums and while his performance what technically impressive I felt it lacking as a live drummer. Maybe it was just the evening for him but it felt exactly like he'd likely play in a studio where everything was reserved, controlled, and for lack of better terms dry and sterile. While I went into this conversation wanting comparisons I think that's something i've learned about myself personally as far as taste goes. I strongly dislike the drummer Mike Heller in a live setting for the same reason, very technically proficient but just remarkably sterile.

It's not that I don't hear how accomplished these guys are, it's that I want more context for it from a performance standpoint. It's easy to talk about the greatness of someone like Steve Gadd, it's harder to break down what's going on there and that's more of what I was aiming for. How you choose to explain it may or may not ever be enough for what I'm looking for, but I appreciate the effort.

Maybe it's a matter of the songwriter\artist doesn't want Gadd playing Steely Dan he wants Gadd playing Paul Simon? Or she doesn't want Vinnie playing Zappa...she wants Vinnie to play Carol King (Russ Kunkel)? So the performance is exactly what is wanted by the artist paying the bill, not what the drummer\s in the audience would prefer to hear.

And that goes full circle back to what makes these guys so good, so respected, and so in demand. They are like chameleons...changing and adapting *perfectly* for what the job description requires.

That "sterility" you describe may have more to do with *your* expectations and less to do with the expectations of the greater number of people there to see the show. I may listen to the same show and think "wow...he was so in the pocket and stayed perfectly in his lane...never got in the way of the vocalist...(or whomever)".

 

[cplueard]

First off - you are doing great communicating in this topic IMO These are not simple, nor easy distinctions. And even when we can get an agreement as to what we are specifically talking about - then we're still likely to disagree about it. So let's see if I can put my cents in here and there...



I'll pass on this one as they are two players that I simply don't know enough to comment on.


Now this one I can relate to because I've been in the chair similar to Freese in a different situation -

Elvis Costello and Burt Bacharach did an album together in, I don't know... 1998. Jim Keltner played drums on that album (except one track that I think Chris Parker recorded in NYC).

Anyway when it came time for the promotional tour - Elvis had no band at that time, so Burt enlisted the bulk of his touring band to do it. So along with a different string section in each city - we prepped to play eight concerts in LA, NYC, Washington DC and London... something like that. Plus we were also slated to record a Session On West 54th TV special that eventually landed on DVD - so I actually really well done recordings of me playing pretty much the entire album and of course, the original.

So how did I fair? I believe, really good. Some places not as good - and some actually being better - though that was mainly because the touring band had a fair amount of rehearsal plus a bunch of soundcheck/rehearsals (we had to rehearse with the new string section every city) plus a number of concerts before the TV taping. This amounted to quite a bit of playing those tunes - and sometimes that's just what it takes to get a song to the next level - time and repetition.

By contrast - for most tunes the original recording band had - on half day (about 4 hours) per tune and that was it. There were exceptions to this - but generally it was going with the first version that met Elvis and Burt's expectations... then on to the next tune.

So what is fundamentally different between what Keltner and I contributed to that project? I had his performances to build on - to either copy outright or interpret to be more "me" or interpret to meet new ideas and feeling that Elvis and Burt had about it - now, three months later.

Jim did not have that - he had Burt playing the piano and... what to play was up to him.... But not up to him really --- because the job in the studio is figuring what to play that meets the artist's expectations. And I can tell that is rarely an easy task. Because everyone is aware that everything matters and no one less than the artist/producer. How it feels? Is that the right pattern? The right volume? Is that fill too much? Too little?

Most non-recording musician would quickly be at the "What difference does it make?" long before the first break?

But session players are well aware that this could be done in 10 minutes or 10 hours... on one song... and possibly come back the next day and try it some more.

Like me Josh Fresse made up none of the those parts originally - even where he played different parts - they grew from the previous parts, not from a blank slate.

So if from only hearing two Sting concerts, one with Vinnie and one with Josh, it would be understandable to equate one player with the other. But the same exact thing good be said of me and Keltner.

But sorry as musicians we really are expected to have listened to a lot more than that - particularly when the concert only demonstrated to each player play decent or even great drums behind Sting. Why would Sting have a player that couldn't do that? But with no slight to Josh, there are dozens of players that could that - at that level.

But record Ten Summoners Tales??? Not and have the album sound like that? Nope. There are many session greats that could have made great albums out of that music, for sure. Sting had already been (after the Police) recording with some of them... Omar, Manu... and they would've play that music great... but it would be different. I would bet Steve Gadd would've made that album interesting... actually so would have Keltner.

But here's the rub... I can't make that assumption of Josh, probably more now than then - because Josh has built an impressive discography in recent years... And it's versatile enough - but versatile doesn't completely cut with folks at Sting's level... or Elvis Costello's level... they want someone capable of playing whatever they want (of course) and someone willing and able to take direction so they can get what they want, but they also want someone with a sound, a subtle uniqueness - someone for all of their versatility has a recognizable sound... and a track record that proves that unique sound is commodity (not just an oddity)

That's why your comparison is correct in its very limited scope... but accessing each player overall produces entirely different results.






You seem to be giving no credit to anything other than "the ability to play the part"

Clufetos didn't play on a single Sabbath album that matters (one in 2017) - he quite possibly learned to play Black Sabbath music listening to Bill Ward.

You are aware that these iconic drums came up with these parts - they played parts where no existed before. I hate the "wrote" when applied to this - because it isn't writing or composing - but it is creating. From nothing but their taste, experience and musical sensibilities.

There is so much to being a drummer than simply being able to play stuff - what a player chooses to play is just - I would say, far more important.

Any I hope that maybe answers a bit of what you seem to be asking...

Same as I said in my other post. I wanted to reply to this and not just leave you hangin' thinking I was startin' stuff and running off. Had some people at work take vacation so I've had a full plate and little to no ability to jump back on.

This is all great insight and was a delight to read. While it wasn't exactly what I was looking for it also addresses (at least it seemed to from my reading) the idea of what I'm asking for and the difficulty of it. It really goes into the area of what is and what could never be as these parts can't be rewritten at the artists at that time so the original creations simply are what they are. And while not impossible to find out it's hard to say if the drummer wrote what the artists was looking for, or heard it totally different and changed the artists perspectives on their own songs.

I really dig what you had to share here.

 

[cplueard]

What would have made the Shannon Forrest experience more rewarding to you ? Should he have taken more risk ? Been not as clean with the facility? Played music that was more raw and less refined ?

Serious question btw.

Yeah, I would've liked him to been more emotive in both his playing and his stage presence. The dude was super on top of what he was doing, but in the normal mix of what was going on his performance lacked depth. It felt like the man was a living drum machine and just playing exactly what should be there of a studio performance, no more no less. This is a virtue unto itself but when every other performer is pushing themselves and killin' it (Castro especially, that man doesn't seem 69 years old) I expect a bit more. Porcaro parts and the others written since then are challenging, but they're fun. It felt like I was cooked a world class steak with no seasoning.

 

[jaymandude]

Yeah, I would've liked him to been more emotive in both his playing and his stage presence. The dude was super on top of what he was doing, but in the normal mix of what was going on his performance lacked depth. It felt like the man was a living drum machine and just playing exactly what should be there of a studio performance, no more no less. This is a virtue unto itself but when every other performer is pushing themselves and killin' it (Castro especially, that man doesn't seem 69 years old) I expect a bit more. Porcaro parts and the others written since then are challenging, but they're fun. It felt like I was cooked a world class steak with no seasoning.

Did you ever see Elvin Jones ?