dcrigger
DFO Master
First off - you are doing great communicating in this topic IMO These are not simple, nor easy distinctions. And even when we can get an agreement as to what we are specifically talking about - then we're still likely to disagree about it.
So let's see if I can put my cents in here and there...
Elvis Costello and Burt Bacharach did an album together in, I don't know... 1998. Jim Keltner played drums on that album (except one track that I think Chris Parker recorded in NYC).
Anyway when it came time for the promotional tour - Elvis had no band at that time, so Burt enlisted the bulk of his touring band to do it. So along with a different string section in each city - we prepped to play eight concerts in LA, NYC, Washington DC and London... something like that. Plus we were also slated to record a Session On West 54th TV special that eventually landed on DVD - so I actually really well done recordings of me playing pretty much the entire album and of course, the original.
So how did I fair? I believe, really good. Some places not as good - and some actually being better - though that was mainly because the touring band had a fair amount of rehearsal plus a bunch of soundcheck/rehearsals (we had to rehearse with the new string section every city) plus a number of concerts before the TV taping. This amounted to quite a bit of playing those tunes - and sometimes that's just what it takes to get a song to the next level - time and repetition.
By contrast - for most tunes the original recording band had - on half day (about 4 hours) per tune and that was it. There were exceptions to this - but generally it was going with the first version that met Elvis and Burt's expectations... then on to the next tune.
So what is fundamentally different between what Keltner and I contributed to that project? I had his performances to build on - to either copy outright or interpret to be more "me" or interpret to meet new ideas and feeling that Elvis and Burt had about it - now, three months later.
Jim did not have that - he had Burt playing the piano and... what to play was up to him.... But not up to him really --- because the job in the studio is figuring what to play that meets the artist's expectations. And I can tell that is rarely an easy task. Because everyone is aware that everything matters and no one less than the artist/producer. How it feels? Is that the right pattern? The right volume? Is that fill too much? Too little?
Most non-recording musician would quickly be at the "What difference does it make?" long before the first break?
But session players are well aware that this could be done in 10 minutes or 10 hours... on one song... and possibly come back the next day and try it some more.
Like me Josh Fresse made up none of the those parts originally - even where he played different parts - they grew from the previous parts, not from a blank slate.
So if from only hearing two Sting concerts, one with Vinnie and one with Josh, it would be understandable to equate one player with the other. But the same exact thing good be said of me and Keltner.
But sorry as musicians we really are expected to have listened to a lot more than that - particularly when the concert only demonstrated to each player play decent or even great drums behind Sting. Why would Sting have a player that couldn't do that? But with no slight to Josh, there are dozens of players that could that - at that level.
But record Ten Summoners Tales??? Not and have the album sound like that? Nope. There are many session greats that could have made great albums out of that music, for sure. Sting had already been (after the Police) recording with some of them... Omar, Manu... and they would've play that music great... but it would be different. I would bet Steve Gadd would've made that album interesting... actually so would have Keltner.
But here's the rub... I can't make that assumption of Josh, probably more now than then - because Josh has built an impressive discography in recent years... And it's versatile enough - but versatile doesn't completely cut with folks at Sting's level... or Elvis Costello's level... they want someone capable of playing whatever they want (of course) and someone willing and able to take direction so they can get what they want, but they also want someone with a sound, a subtle uniqueness - someone for all of their versatility has a recognizable sound... and a track record that proves that unique sound is commodity (not just an oddity)
That's why your comparison is correct in its very limited scope... but accessing each player overall produces entirely different results.
Clufetos didn't play on a single Sabbath album that matters (one in 2017) - he quite possibly learned to play Black Sabbath music listening to Bill Ward.
You are aware that these iconic drums came up with these parts - they played parts where no existed before. I hate the "wrote" when applied to this - because it isn't writing or composing - but it is creating. From nothing but their taste, experience and musical sensibilities.
There is so much to being a drummer than simply being able to play stuff - what a player chooses to play is just - I would say, far more important.
Any I hope that maybe answers a bit of what you seem to be asking...
I'll pass on this one as they are two players that I simply don't know enough to comment on.I don't even like Suicidal Tendencies but I feel like Eric Moore is everything Lombardo is and so much more. Going into even more detail I could talk about why I think it's more musical and what's going on. This is something that can be viewed objectively and experienced.
Now this one I can relate to because I've been in the chair similar to Freese in a different situation -Another example would be Colaiuta to Freese with Sting. I wish I had the time to pull up videos for comparison but while I respect Colaiuta I think Freese just objectively feels and interprets the songs in a more pleasing way to my ear.
Elvis Costello and Burt Bacharach did an album together in, I don't know... 1998. Jim Keltner played drums on that album (except one track that I think Chris Parker recorded in NYC).
Anyway when it came time for the promotional tour - Elvis had no band at that time, so Burt enlisted the bulk of his touring band to do it. So along with a different string section in each city - we prepped to play eight concerts in LA, NYC, Washington DC and London... something like that. Plus we were also slated to record a Session On West 54th TV special that eventually landed on DVD - so I actually really well done recordings of me playing pretty much the entire album and of course, the original.
So how did I fair? I believe, really good. Some places not as good - and some actually being better - though that was mainly because the touring band had a fair amount of rehearsal plus a bunch of soundcheck/rehearsals (we had to rehearse with the new string section every city) plus a number of concerts before the TV taping. This amounted to quite a bit of playing those tunes - and sometimes that's just what it takes to get a song to the next level - time and repetition.
By contrast - for most tunes the original recording band had - on half day (about 4 hours) per tune and that was it. There were exceptions to this - but generally it was going with the first version that met Elvis and Burt's expectations... then on to the next tune.
So what is fundamentally different between what Keltner and I contributed to that project? I had his performances to build on - to either copy outright or interpret to be more "me" or interpret to meet new ideas and feeling that Elvis and Burt had about it - now, three months later.
Jim did not have that - he had Burt playing the piano and... what to play was up to him.... But not up to him really --- because the job in the studio is figuring what to play that meets the artist's expectations. And I can tell that is rarely an easy task. Because everyone is aware that everything matters and no one less than the artist/producer. How it feels? Is that the right pattern? The right volume? Is that fill too much? Too little?
Most non-recording musician would quickly be at the "What difference does it make?" long before the first break?
But session players are well aware that this could be done in 10 minutes or 10 hours... on one song... and possibly come back the next day and try it some more.
Like me Josh Fresse made up none of the those parts originally - even where he played different parts - they grew from the previous parts, not from a blank slate.
So if from only hearing two Sting concerts, one with Vinnie and one with Josh, it would be understandable to equate one player with the other. But the same exact thing good be said of me and Keltner.
But sorry as musicians we really are expected to have listened to a lot more than that - particularly when the concert only demonstrated to each player play decent or even great drums behind Sting. Why would Sting have a player that couldn't do that? But with no slight to Josh, there are dozens of players that could that - at that level.
But record Ten Summoners Tales??? Not and have the album sound like that? Nope. There are many session greats that could have made great albums out of that music, for sure. Sting had already been (after the Police) recording with some of them... Omar, Manu... and they would've play that music great... but it would be different. I would bet Steve Gadd would've made that album interesting... actually so would have Keltner.
But here's the rub... I can't make that assumption of Josh, probably more now than then - because Josh has built an impressive discography in recent years... And it's versatile enough - but versatile doesn't completely cut with folks at Sting's level... or Elvis Costello's level... they want someone capable of playing whatever they want (of course) and someone willing and able to take direction so they can get what they want, but they also want someone with a sound, a subtle uniqueness - someone for all of their versatility has a recognizable sound... and a track record that proves that unique sound is commodity (not just an oddity)
That's why your comparison is correct in its very limited scope... but accessing each player overall produces entirely different results.
You seem to be giving no credit to anything other than "the ability to play the part"That's at least why i feel there can be something gained in this conversation. I generally stay away from topics that are more grating to people because I don't care that much 99% of this time. I want god reasons and comparisons for things like why Porcaro's shuffle is considered the bar When Brad Wilk can nail that feel incredibly well himself. Or why Bill Ward is spoken so highly of when Tommy Clufetos is everything he ever was and more in my book.
Clufetos didn't play on a single Sabbath album that matters (one in 2017) - he quite possibly learned to play Black Sabbath music listening to Bill Ward.
You are aware that these iconic drums came up with these parts - they played parts where no existed before. I hate the "wrote" when applied to this - because it isn't writing or composing - but it is creating. From nothing but their taste, experience and musical sensibilities.
There is so much to being a drummer than simply being able to play stuff - what a player chooses to play is just - I would say, far more important.
Any I hope that maybe answers a bit of what you seem to be asking...
This is an easy open book discussion on talking about things and perspectives that can influence any of us as artists that's having trouble getting off the ground because of different people saying that (in my case) I don't get something instead of actually showing what I supposedly don't get. If you have the time and effort, I'd love to hear reasoning and examples of why these people are better based on their playing, that's the type of answer I want from people. If the time and effort isn't there then that's totally fine and there's no ill will, I don't expect people to feel they need to take time out to do that. It's just not a good answer to a question that's hard to phrase.