Why hasn’t Paiste recreated the SCDR?

varatrodder

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Seems like there would be a market for those? Apparently they had a high failure rate in the original run, but you would think they could figure that out 40+ years later.
 

JDA

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I absolutely missed....(somewhat odd for me but must have been preoccupied)
where how when and where...the high failure rate....was brought to light to us the general public.
I've asked this before
and I think it led back to a barroom before a vintage show discussion..

Is it anywhere in print (like modern drummer) or an interview with a Paiste employee..or where what..

Paiste usually doesn't have employee operator problems skill issues...once they get their template/ master etc cymbal together.
Is this -hi reject rate- just a wives tale or what
Or is it just a misunderstanding of the sound they were going after.

I always thought I knew of two connections One; was Jack Dejohnette in 1974 asking them to do an old K-style cymbal (orange paisteprofiles book) and one of my own: prior the other use of the word Sound Creation was in their Gong range ( so I thought maybe they attempted to inject Gong attributes into drumset cymbals...

Gong attributes where they actually had gongs (Paiste did/does) that are supposed to relate (by vibration) to the organs of the body heart etc.

~
Maybe to Rat's question I would say; if there was any gong connection; the entire concept (Sound Creation cymbals) went over the head and or not accepted by enough drumset players - Just too far out of an idea. Or a very limited in use/ acceptance of one

I don't think they made a 'mistake' or were plagued with rejects. The idea itself might have been the rejection.
Especially from off the bat their words in the literature saying
"remember: Sound Creation is not a new cymbal line (huh? wha?) it is a collection of widely varied sounds and feelings " (<- that'd be my connection tip off to their gongs)
how confusing to the average Herman Hermits drummer..
 
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WaggoRecords

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I was confused by what was meant by “failure rate”, so I googled it and found an oddly similar conversation...

 
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JDA

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the golf Ball hammer were likely done by the foot-regulated hammer machine
The way "50%" came to me was purely as a rumor -- and a vague one at that. So, I don't know about the rate across models. You're right ... the SCBR is not terribly different than the 602 Heavy Ride. I would guess that the Dark Crashes and Dark Rides -- with their golf-ball-sized hammering -- were a bitch to get right. I bet Matt could shed some light...
 

Old PIT Guy

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I think it's because even though their value has become ridiculous since the discontinuation they weren't all that well received beyond niche enthusiast forums. I sampled one and it was .... I'm tying to think of a kinder word than obnoxious ... overbearing. Personal opinion, of course. But then I thought the same of most vintage K. Zildjians. Clangers we called them. They complimented those mini manhole cover EAK hats well.
 

nickrobotron

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I’m with him^. I think Obnoxious Clanger is appropriate. Most heavy vintage cymbals sound worse than new heavy cymbals. So I would probably like a reissue. Doesn’t have to be the SCDR. If Paiste doesn’t want to launch the old line, they could use the hammer pattern and just call it 602 Dark Ride, like originally.

But what is a SCDR if not just a heavily hammered B20 with a heavy weight? I’ve had a few SCDR’s and none of them compare to my 602 Modern Essentials (more crashable) or my old Masters Crisp aka Rosie (sweeter) or even my old Dark Crisp (if you liked the SCDR’s trash and want to up it a little).

I just think Paiste is making cymbals similar to the SCDR and there’s no sense in creating another.

If they did though, I’d buy it just for the cool hammer pattern. And I would also opt for the Sound Creation logo because it looks awesome.
 
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JDA

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weren't all that well received beyond niche enthusiast forums.
yea all those niche forum posters such as Al Foster, Jack DeJohnette, Jon Heisman Fredy Studer, Albert "Tootie" Heath , Paul Motian.. . I mean dude - night and day- those guys would talk them up .....with not a thing to back it up (sarc off..
 

JDA

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{Sound Description: harmonic, lasting, centered, penetrating, influencing, evenly fading
Sound Color: dark
Sound Sensation: influencing, penetrating } they tried to bring that (and may have succeeded) to drum set symbols.
the market just wasn't there with them .

I contend they didn't name nor market them as Sound Creation out of thin air
 
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dboomer

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Seems like there would be a market for those?
And apparently to Paiste there does not seem to be a market for them. While they are highly collectable the demand is probably quite small compared to other models in their line.

But I'll be if you placed an order for a few thousand of them they would build them for you
 

Old PIT Guy

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yea all those niche forum posters such as Al Foster, Jack DeJohnette, Jon Heisman Fredy Studer, Albert "Tootie" Heath , Paul Motian.. . I mean dude - night and day- those guys would talk them up .....with not a thing to back it up (sarc off..
A few things to consider. I'm not in that list, nor are countless other drummers who didn't fall head over heels with them either. Do any in your list still play the SCDR or did they move on. If they were popular why drop them from the lineup. There were a few guys I recall flying these full staff at CH, who was that one dude ... formedacyst? NM, I blotted the name out for sanity.

It's a cymbal that a cymbal company discontinued. That's all anyone needs to know regarding its market, popularity and value to the company. I think they know their products better than a forum dude.
 

michiganice91

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I’m with him^. I think Obnoxious Clanger is appropriate. Most heavy vintage cymbals sound worse than new heavy cymbals. So I would probably like a reissue. Doesn’t have to be the SCDR. If Paiste doesn’t want to launch the old line, they could use the hammer pattern and just call it 602 Dark Ride, like originally.

But what is a SCDR if not just a heavily hammered B20 with a heavy weight? I’ve had a few SCDR’s and none of them compare to my 602 Modern Essentials (more crashable) or my old Masters Crisp aka Rosie (sweeter) or even my old Dark Crisp (if you liked the SCDR’s trash and want to up it a little).

I just think Paiste is making cymbals similar to the SCDR and there’s no sense in creating another.

If they did though, I’d buy it just for the cool hammer pattern. And I would also opt for the Sound Creation logo because it looks awesome.
I pretty much disagree with everything said here. Saying most heavy vintage cymbals sound worse than modern heavy cymbals doesn't make sense to me at all. What would age have to do with the weight of a cymbal and its sound?

And calling SCDR's obnoxious clangers is a bit ridiculous because there's a million examples in music and online of them being played and sounding fantastic. SCDR's possess a huge amount of bottom end frequencies that aren't present in many thinner, more crashable rides. This is probably the difference you're not used to hearing. When you crash a dark ride you get a huge full sound spectrum instead of just mids.

As to the SCDR being just a "heavily hammered B20 with a heavy weight" this is wrong. The shape is completely unique and way different than a 602. The dark rides aren't just "heavily hammered" its more nuanced than that and has to do with the type of hammer used and the depth of the strikes. Those rides have to be thicker and heavier because of how deep the hammer strikes go into the surface. This combination of extra deep hammering, unique shape, high quality alloy, and heavier weight makes a cymbal that sounds absolutely nothing like what paiste is producing today.

Sound creation dark rides made before 1985 were truly hand hammered cymbals from start to finish. The main reason we wont see them is a combination of production cost (this comes down to Erik paiste determining what is good and bad for his business) and demand.

@nickrobotron Paiste definitely isn't making cymbals that are similar to the SCDR in my opinion. The sound and shape of whats being offered today is proof of that, and the hammering that helped produce the SCDR sound isn't evident either.

You are absolutely right about the SCDRs not comparing to the 602s and masters. SCDRs produce a MUCH darker sound with much more complexity and nuance than any 602 offered today. The deep hammer blows and unique shape brake up the surface of the cymbal to a much greater degree and in a different way than the delicate strikes you see on a 602 ME. That doesn't make one any better than the other, its simply about preference.
 

Old PIT Guy

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And calling SCDR's obnoxious clangers is a bit ridiculous because there's a million examples in music and online of them being played and sounding fantastic. SCDR's possess a huge amount of bottom end frequencies that aren't present in many thinner, more crashable rides.
I don't think it's ridiculous; I think it's an opinion. You may not agree with it and that's fine, as it should be. There could a billion examples of it being played and if someone tries one and doesn't like it that doesn't make their dislike ridiculous. I didn't like the one I played. There was no way that cymbal was going to sound good to me in any context I used it because my ears were vomiting when I laid stick to it. It was harsh, discordant with itself and devoid of any subtlety. The next guy who played it may have messed his pants he liked it so much. What difference does any of that make at the end of the day. I was only addressing why the company stopped selling it.
 

JDA

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I believe/have hunch/ Sound Creation the term the name was used on a series of gongs .....well before the cymbals; I used to have a great old gong black and white Paiste-- gong catalog--- that had the Body Parts each individual gong 'affected...yep even the sex organs..
 
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dnel77

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i agree with daniel. The sound creation is one of my favorite cymbals. I have been pretty much been playing mine on every type of gig for about 7 years. It definitely takes so understand of how to play them. Anyway i love mine. Generally why does any company stop producing anything? It probably wasnt popular! Thats fine popular and great are sometimes on total different ends of the spectrum. Listen to a dark ride then listen to any other line of paiste modern cymbals. U wont hear anywhere near the depth of highs and lows. To each their own.
 

dnel77

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He and up until Motian's passing were the biggest online enthusiast

i mean drummers move on from equipment or
else they would still be playing old As and Ks. We know they still probably own them. Jack might have moved for reasons of money. We know he went with instanbul first. I was reading he made a nice piece of coin from the sale of the sabian series.
 


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