Why hasn’t Paiste recreated the SCDR?

multijd

DFO Veteran
Platinum Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
2,429
Reaction score
1,780
Location
Buffalo, NY
To give credit where it’s due, I think it was JDA that came up with the “all purpose wedding ride” analogy! Ha... I borrowed that from back in our Cymbalholic days.
I was going to respond that this is the most epic Cymbalholic thread Ive seen in quite awhile! I couldn't think how to phrase it but there you go. I wish I coukd respond meaningfully about the SCDR But I don’t remember playing one for more than a few taps. Therefore I can't comment. Love to hear what you cats say though.
 
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
1,105
Reaction score
1,250
Location
NY-NJ
As a longtime user of SCDR's, a longtime cymbalholic (and DFO) member, and a longtime Paiste user (and endorser,) I would like to "chime" in here (HA!) I'm no expert, but here are my opinions.


Firstly, I LOVE SCDR's, I have recorded with them, played live with them in small groups, and in large and small rooms. Here's a few different examples and different perspectives.


and larger groups (sound from behind the drums,)


or (sound from out front,)


and this engineer really captured the sound of the SCDR well (in my opinion,)



here's another from that same session.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34851uYgMYU


I use them for jazz primarily, but could use them for rock and funk. I guess I just want to baby them a bit. I have always received comments from other musicians about how they like or loved my SCDR's. I grew up hearing them played hundreds of times live (and on many records) by Al, Jack, and Motian. Al and I are old friends, and we have played (compared) our SCDR's side by side a few times. And one of mine is nearly identical to his original SCDR and my other one is really close to his current one. My original SCDR is a very good one, and this might be true because it was given to me by a Paiste endorser.

Along with Roy's flat, and Higgins' 602's, the 22" riveted (2) SCDR is THE sound of a jazz ride cymbal that I hear in MY head. I am lucky enough to have two SCDR's that I love, along with a 20 and an 18 Light 602 flat (Roy,) and a 22" Paperthin 602 (Billy) and a FANTASTIC 20" SC Dark Crash (actually a ride in disguise,) and many newer Paiste sounds that I can draw from. I LOVE my 22" riveted Masters (nothing like a SCDR though.)

Because of the gong connection to the Sound Creation line, I have always been intrigued by gongs, but not intrigued (nor wealthy) enough to start buying them, although I do have a few little ones. Because of some other conversations that I have had with the Paiste guys, I wonder if the Sound Creation craftsmen are even still alive or still at Paiste. The SC cymbals did seem to be a little more inconsistent than the other Paistes, and because of that I always thought they (like old K's) were more reliant on human craftsmanship (hence the occasional and wonderful variants.)

From several conversations back at Cymbalholics, I happen to think the magic is in the bridge. The ones that I have, and the ones that I have played that sounded GREAT, had a huge band of hammering at the bridge (where the bell meets the bow.) The very flat profile is unique but not as described earlier in this thread. Mine don't have a big flange at the edge (maybe a slight downturn.) But they do have a cool little flat spot in the bow, and I think this is where the SCDR chime lives. I have seen this same flat band in some pre serial 602 hats too.

Like many good instruments, you have to learn how to play them. But once you find their voice, and your voice in them, it's pretty magical. They love older worn down tips, and maple sticks, and do require a touch!!!! Any big tipped (or nylon tipped) sticks bring out the worst in them, as does bad (or no) touch.

Lastly, I have put the 22" SCDR next to many other Paiste rides (including the Rough, Dark Energy's, Modern Essentials) and the one that I think is closest is the 22" Traditional Medium Light. But the Trad doesn't have the magical "chime." However that doesn't prevent my Trad from being my fave all around ride.

Here's the 22" Trad in all it's glory.


Thanks for posting those gong vids Joe, DAMN!!!!
MSG
 

DavedrumsTX

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
298
Reaction score
348
Location
Dallas, Texas
Seems like there would be a market for those? Apparently they had a high failure rate in the original run, but you would think they could figure that out 40+ years later.
Paiste wanted to clean up their lines. They had a confusing product mix and felt Sound Creation was stepping on Signature. That was the short story I heard at NAMM many years back. I disagreed, but hey I am average joe. What do I know?
 

james_c_marks

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Messages
63
Reaction score
134
Location
Indiana
Lots of SCDR 22 talk here, try a 20.
More specifically a New Dimension -
I had 2 non-ND SCs prior to this, chasing the green genie dark wash idea created on Cymbalholic... I think Michiganice would agree that Paiste took away just enough weirdness with the NDs that they’re more practical / playable SCs

I’ve posted this before on DFO. This is not a “clanger” and I use it for Rock, Funk, and would even at a Wedding...

If something less dark is required I switch to the 22” 602

I
 

Seb77

DFO Master
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
3,212
Reaction score
1,864
Location
Germany
Lots of SCDR 22 talk here, try a 20.
More specifically a New Dimension -
I had 2 non-ND SCs prior to this, chasing the green genie dark wash idea created on Cymbalholic... I think Michiganice would agree that Paiste took away just enough weirdness with the NDs that they’re more practical / playable SCs

I’ve posted this before on DFO. This is not a “clanger” and I use it for Rock, Funk, and would even at a Wedding...

I
That sounds rather light? What's the weight? I have a 22" of this model and it's much more clangy/less crashable.
 

dnel77

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
85
Reaction score
49
Location
dubuque, iowa
I’ll take your word on alloy availability since I didn’t follow supplier issues with instrument makers back then any more than I do now.

But I have to assume Paiste knew the alloy formulas for their own lines of cymbals, and it seems to me at some point in this 17 year B20 hiatus they could've found another supplier if those lines were lucrative enough to be important to the company's survival.

And so it still seems like at least somewhat a business decision based on that product's viability and their confidence in other lines to focus production in elsewhere. Anecdotally, I didn’t know or see anyone at a school with 100 drummers packed into a small space who played a SCDR. Doesn’t mean there wasn’t, just that I didn’t see them. And I was there 10 hours a day for 3 years. I saw a lot of Zildjian and Sabian, very little Paiste and nothing from the sound creation line. That doesn’t exactly speak to a popularity worthy of perseverance. To me, anyway.
yeah that also might have to do with cost of the cymbal as well. i know when i was younger just could afford paiste.
 

dnel77

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
85
Reaction score
49
Location
dubuque, iowa
Sound Creation rides were a regular topic at Cymbalholic. I’ve never played one in person, but I generally like what I hear. I like it...not sure what the issue is, but my impression is that guys would often buy one, then sell it later. Then buy another later. And it would be this back and forth thing.

It was never intended to be an all purpose wedding ride, if you know what I mean. If ya don’t like it, play a Zildjian ;)
wasnt that mostly tom killian! lol
 

james_c_marks

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Messages
63
Reaction score
134
Location
Indiana
That sounds rather light? What's the weight? I have a 22" of this model and it's much more clangy/less crashable.
I’ve actually never weighed it!

The original seller’s listing says 2625 g.

by far my heaviest 20”
 
Last edited:

james_c_marks

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Messages
63
Reaction score
134
Location
Indiana
As a longtime user of SCDR's, a longtime cymbalholic (and DFO) member, and a longtime Paiste user (and endorser,) I would like to "chime" in here (HA!) I'm no expert, but here are my opinions.


Firstly, I LOVE SCDR's, I have recorded with them, played live with them in small groups, and in large and small rooms. Here's a few different examples and different perspectives.


and larger groups (sound from behind the drums,)


or (sound from out front,)


and this engineer really captured the sound of the SCDR well (in my opinion,)



here's another from that same session.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34851uYgMYU


I use them for jazz primarily, but could use them for rock and funk. I guess I just want to baby them a bit. I have always received comments from other musicians about how they like or loved my SCDR's. I grew up hearing them played hundreds of times live (and on many records) by Al, Jack, and Motian. Al and I are old friends, and we have played (compared) our SCDR's side by side a few times. And one of mine is nearly identical to his original SCDR and my other one is really close to his current one. My original SCDR is a very good one, and this might be true because it was given to me by a Paiste endorser.

Along with Roy's flat, and Higgins' 602's, the 22" riveted (2) SCDR is THE sound of a jazz ride cymbal that I hear in MY head. I am lucky enough to have two SCDR's that I love, along with a 20 and an 18 Light 602 flat (Roy,) and a 22" Paperthin 602 (Billy) and a FANTASTIC 20" SC Dark Crash (actually a ride in disguise,) and many newer Paiste sounds that I can draw from. I LOVE my 22" riveted Masters (nothing like a SCDR though.)

Because of the gong connection to the Sound Creation line, I have always been intrigued by gongs, but not intrigued (nor wealthy) enough to start buying them, although I do have a few little ones. Because of some other conversations that I have had with the Paiste guys, I wonder if the Sound Creation craftsmen are even still alive or still at Paiste. The SC cymbals did seem to be a little more inconsistent than the other Paistes, and because of that I always thought they (like old K's) were more reliant on human craftsmanship (hence the occasional and wonderful variants.)

From several conversations back at Cymbalholics, I happen to think the magic is in the bridge. The ones that I have, and the ones that I have played that sounded GREAT, had a huge band of hammering at the bridge (where the bell meets the bow.) The very flat profile is unique but not as described earlier in this thread. Mine don't have a big flange at the edge (maybe a slight downturn.) But they do have a cool little flat spot in the bow, and I think this is where the SCDR chime lives. I have seen this same flat band in some pre serial 602 hats too.

Like many good instruments, you have to learn how to play them. But once you find their voice, and your voice in them, it's pretty magical. They love older worn down tips, and maple sticks, and do require a touch!!!! Any big tipped (or nylon tipped) sticks bring out the worst in them, as does bad (or no) touch.

Lastly, I have put the 22" SCDR next to many other Paiste rides (including the Rough, Dark Energy's, Modern Essentials) and the one that I think is closest is the 22" Traditional Medium Light. But the Trad doesn't have the magical "chime." However that doesn't prevent my Trad from being my fave all around ride.

Here's the 22" Trad in all it's glory.


Thanks for posting those gong vids Joe, DAMN!!!!
MSG
*and this engineer really captured the sound of the SCDR well (in my opinion,)*


Great sound MSG
 

james_c_marks

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Messages
63
Reaction score
134
Location
Indiana
For the DFO guys who were never on Cymbalholic, but are reading all of this SCDR discussion - yes this deep level of discussion was what made ‘holic so educational and entertaining.

I miss you guys. Glad to find you here once in a while.
 

Gcort49

Very well Known Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
774
Reaction score
248
Location
Atlanta South
A bit off topic, but I wish Paiste would bring back the 2002 flat ride...and/or a flat in the Master series...better yet, BRING BACK the Sig Traditional flat...all I got to say
 

multijd

DFO Veteran
Platinum Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
2,429
Reaction score
1,780
Location
Buffalo, NY
As a longtime user of SCDR's, a longtime cymbalholic (and DFO) member, and a longtime Paiste user (and endorser,) I would like to "chime" in here (HA!) I'm no expert, but here are my opinions.


Firstly, I LOVE SCDR's, I have recorded with them, played live with them in small groups, and in large and small rooms. Here's a few different examples and different perspectives.


and larger groups (sound from behind the drums,)


or (sound from out front,)


and this engineer really captured the sound of the SCDR well (in my opinion,)



here's another from that same session.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34851uYgMYU


I use them for jazz primarily, but could use them for rock and funk. I guess I just want to baby them a bit. I have always received comments from other musicians about how they like or loved my SCDR's. I grew up hearing them played hundreds of times live (and on many records) by Al, Jack, and Motian. Al and I are old friends, and we have played (compared) our SCDR's side by side a few times. And one of mine is nearly identical to his original SCDR and my other one is really close to his current one. My original SCDR is a very good one, and this might be true because it was given to me by a Paiste endorser.

Along with Roy's flat, and Higgins' 602's, the 22" riveted (2) SCDR is THE sound of a jazz ride cymbal that I hear in MY head. I am lucky enough to have two SCDR's that I love, along with a 20 and an 18 Light 602 flat (Roy,) and a 22" Paperthin 602 (Billy) and a FANTASTIC 20" SC Dark Crash (actually a ride in disguise,) and many newer Paiste sounds that I can draw from. I LOVE my 22" riveted Masters (nothing like a SCDR though.)

Because of the gong connection to the Sound Creation line, I have always been intrigued by gongs, but not intrigued (nor wealthy) enough to start buying them, although I do have a few little ones. Because of some other conversations that I have had with the Paiste guys, I wonder if the Sound Creation craftsmen are even still alive or still at Paiste. The SC cymbals did seem to be a little more inconsistent than the other Paistes, and because of that I always thought they (like old K's) were more reliant on human craftsmanship (hence the occasional and wonderful variants.)

From several conversations back at Cymbalholics, I happen to think the magic is in the bridge. The ones that I have, and the ones that I have played that sounded GREAT, had a huge band of hammering at the bridge (where the bell meets the bow.) The very flat profile is unique but not as described earlier in this thread. Mine don't have a big flange at the edge (maybe a slight downturn.) But they do have a cool little flat spot in the bow, and I think this is where the SCDR chime lives. I have seen this same flat band in some pre serial 602 hats too.

Like many good instruments, you have to learn how to play them. But once you find their voice, and your voice in them, it's pretty magical. They love older worn down tips, and maple sticks, and do require a touch!!!! Any big tipped (or nylon tipped) sticks bring out the worst in them, as does bad (or no) touch.

Lastly, I have put the 22" SCDR next to many other Paiste rides (including the Rough, Dark Energy's, Modern Essentials) and the one that I think is closest is the 22" Traditional Medium Light. But the Trad doesn't have the magical "chime." However that doesn't prevent my Trad from being my fave all around ride.

Here's the 22" Trad in all it's glory.


Thanks for posting those gong vids Joe, DAMN!!!!
MSG
Wow Bethlehem Musikfest! I bit it was nearly abandoned this past summer I hope they are up and running well this summer. Always a good time!

thanks for the excellent post Mark and great to hear your drumming.
 

AtlantaDrumGuy

DFO Master
Joined
May 10, 2012
Messages
4,406
Reaction score
591
Location
Atlanta, GA
For the DFO guys who were never on Cymbalholic, but are reading all of this SCDR discussion - yes this deep level of discussion was what made ‘holic so educational and entertaining.

I miss you guys. Glad to find you here once in a while.
I miss it too. Where’s Don at? We need his humor again!
 
Last edited:

toddlittle827

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2016
Messages
118
Reaction score
112
Location
United States
In 1980 dollars a 22" Sound Creation Dark Ride retailed for $475 which was a $120 more than what a 22" Formula 602 cost at the time. A roughly 34% difference.

A brand new 22" 602 sells (not retails) for $605 at places like Sweetwater. A faithful recreation of the Dark Ride would cost you somewhere in the $900-1000 out of pocket imo in today's dollars.

This is probably the biggest why they wouldn't reissue it.
 

NobleCooleyNut

Very well Known Member
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
1,481
Reaction score
2,297
I agree with the playing with a band comment . I have had a few different cymbals where I was not thrilled with the sound of a cymbal on its own but loved it when it was played with other instruments .

The SC Dark ride sounds Clancy and harsh on its own . Once it is heard with other instruments it loses a lot of the clang .
 

JDA

DFO Star
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
23,547
Reaction score
12,512
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
(cue Vincent Price music)

'Mystery Dark Ride...



(see text)
 


Top