Wilcoxon Swing Solos help

poco rit.

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A couple of other things to add about this particular solo.
1) Wilcoxon’s accent patterns are very specific and not always conventional. When you adhere to what he has notated you get an entirely different level of music. (The “ swing” element?). A good example of this is the single drags at the top of the second page. He does this a lot through all of his books and he has exercises in the beginning of the book to strengthen the concept. He likes to move between accenting the “ruff”, the “ruff” and the tap and then the traditional accent of only the tap. This is an area many people gloss over instead just playing the traditional accented tap. This is a very “jazzy” sounding phrase that can be heard in Philly Joe Jones (who studied with Wilcoxon), Frankie Dunlop (who studied with John Rowland my first teacher, lucky me!) and many other jazz drummers. This figure appears again in the dotted 16th’s and 32nd note figure on the fifth line from the bottom of page
2) Note that most of the 32nd Note rolls are written out long hand whereas the 7’s use roll notation.
3) There is a couple of interesting spots related to the 7’s. One is the 7 at the end of the 4th line on page 2. This roll is again metered as a 16th triplet while the subsequent rolls are slower being metered in 32nd’s. While the end of the 3rd line from the bottom has a 13 stroke roll going directly into a 7 that is metered in 32nds.
4) There is one odd sticking spot associated with this particular 7. Note the that the roll is a right hand 7 ending on the left and the figure following it begins on the left. This all makes sense if you consider where the 7 comes from and where it is going. The slight sticking anomaly there makes everything else lay natural.
(wow that took awhile!! And my phone died in the middle!)
I hope all of that helps!!
Dude thank you for taking the time to write this and pass on this knowledge. You just gave me a mini master class. I really appreciate it. This is why I love this forum.

Yes the unconventional accent patterns I've played thus far have been a little tricky, but I can tell they are VERY valuable and will come in handy when playing them in a kit or fill context. Also, how I mentioned earlier playing stickings a lil different here and there after I learn the piece, I ALWAYS keep the accents where they are meant to be. Regarding the swing element, I noticed some solos are more conducive to swinging then others. But the ones where you can swing are oh so fun.
 

poco rit.

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Thanks everyone for the input! Any tips on how you approach Wilcoxon is appreciated. I didn't even consider playing the book with brushes. Ive played some of these solos on the floor tom with quarter note bass drum going and hi hat chicks. Very Gene Krupa sounding
 

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So ive been playing out of Wilcoxon Swing Solos the past couple weeks. Very fun so far. I just wanna make sure im playing these markings correctly. This particular solo is on page 28 called “Heating the Rudiments”

Let me first clarify a few things as i understand them.. So a 7 stroke roll (in this context) is LLRRLLR, with the last Right hand stroke being the downbeat on beat 1 of the next measure. The pick up, which is the 7 stroke roll, has 2 diagonal lines going vertically upward. If we look at the and of beat 1 of the first measure, the lines subdividing that note are going horizontally.

My question is: Is the and of beat 1 of the first measure a 7 stroke roll also?? If so, why is the pickup roll have lines going diagonally, yet the 7 stroke roll on the and of beat 1 have lines going horizontally? Or what is the proper sticking for the and?

View attachment 530224
The answer is yes. It would have to be a 7 stroke roll in order to start with the L and end with the R. Also, the prior roll starts with the L and ends with the R and specifies a 7 stroke roll. This implies all further such rolls should be 7 stroke rolls unless specified otherwise.

Having said that, without the specific instruction to play 7 strokes and start with L and end with R (most drum notation doesn’t include such instruction), I would play that notation as a 5 stroke roll unless the tempo was so slow I needed 7 strokes to sound like a proper open roll.

I’m not sure why the slash marks on the & of 1 are horizontal. I don’t recall seeing that before.
 

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While were on Wilcoxon and 7's, I always wondered why he wrote some 7 stroke rolls in a tradional fashion, where you started and finshed with different hands, and others as starting and ending with the same hand.
My 'inflexible' mind always wrestled with this, obviously favoring the tradional variant. Was Wilcoxon just offering an additional challenge or ..... what am I missing?

See the examples from All American Drummer Solo 61 for a tradional 7-stroke roll and Solo 66 for the same hand variant.


CW_AAD_61.png


CW_AAD_66.png
 

poco rit.

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While were on Wilcoxon and 7's, I always wondered why he wrote some 7 stroke rolls in a tradional fashion, where you started and finshed with different hands, and others as starting and ending with the same hand.
My 'inflexible' mind always wrestled with this, obviously favoring the tradional variant. Was Wilcoxon just offering an additional challenge or ..... what am I missing?

See the examples from All American Drummer Solo 61 for a tradional 7-stroke roll and Solo 66 for the same hand variant.


View attachment 530251

View attachment 530252
YES. This same notion happens in Swing Solos sometimes. Thanks. Now i know im not crazy. Some 7 stroke rolls are double strokes and some single strokes. I guess we just have to imply the type of roll depending on the first and last stroke thats written. So like in the 2 instances you show, either LLRRLLR OR RLRLRLR.
 
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Hop

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YES. This same notion happens in Swing Solos sometimes. Thanks. Now i know im not crazy. Some 7 stroke rolls are double strokes and some single strokes. I guess we just have to imply the type of roll depending on the first and last stroke thats written. So like in the 2 instances you show, either LLRRLLR OR RLRLRLR.
LOL... Boy do I feel like a knucklehead right about now. It sounds so obvious after your clarification. I'll use a fresh set of eyes on those exercises I've been avoiding.
Thanks for tip!

EDIT: It also clears up that little drag figure preceding the single stroked 7 in Solo 66.
 

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While were on Wilcoxon and 7's, I always wondered why he wrote some 7 stroke rolls in a tradional fashion, where you started and finshed with different hands, and others as starting and ending with the same hand.
My 'inflexible' mind always wrestled with this, obviously favoring the tradional variant. Was Wilcoxon just offering an additional challenge or ..... what am I missing?

See the examples from All American Drummer Solo 61 for a tradional 7-stroke roll and Solo 66 for the same hand variant.


View attachment 530251

View attachment 530252
YES. This same notion happens in Swing Solos sometimes. Thanks. Now i know im not crazy. Some 7 stroke rolls are double strokes and some single strokes. I guess we just have to imply the type of roll depending on the first and last stroke thats written. So like in the 2 instances you show, either LLRRLLR OR RLRLRLR.

Huh? No... I really believe that all 7 stroke rolls are 3 doubles and a single. Certainly the ones in these two etudes are.

#61 - normal 7 stroke roll from L to R in the space of an eighth note. (just like the OP's example)

#66 - this one is rhythmically different - yet sticked exactly the same. The idea is to play a normal R to R 5 stroke for an eighth note, but to stick a pair of grace notes just in front of that roll -like a ruff leading into a 5 stroke roll. Like a 7 stroke roll that would start on the "e" of 1 - but just a tad later. So it's like a little anticipation of the "&".

ERROR CORRECTION - I'm sorry, I keep writing "ruff" when I mean, "drag" - when I was taught a 4 stroke ruff was "LRLR" but a 3 stroke ruff was "LLR" - so I still tend to use the two terms interchangeably for a anticipatory double - Sorry for the confusion

I can't imagine any situation where "RLRLRLR" would be considered a 7 stroke roll - I could be wrong, but I've just never heard of anyone referring to seven single strokes as a 7 stroke roll.
 
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DrummerJustLikeDad

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#66 - this one is rhythmically different - yet sticked exactly the same. The idea is to play a normal R to R 5 stroke for an eighth note, but to stick a pair of grace notes just in front of that roll -like a ruff leading into a 5 stroke roll. Like a 7 stroke roll that would start on the "e" of 1 - but just a tad later. So it's like a little anticipation of the "&".
So to clarify what I think you mean with Solo 66: it's a 7 stroke because of the ruff, not a 7 stroke PLUS the ruff?
 

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To be fair, my buddy Charlie indicated "7str" above that sticking and I always assumed that meant a roll.
But it doesn't make sense to 'drag' into a roll and it is akward to end that roll with the third stoke accent using the same hand.
But, with the clarification by poco rit. it becomes clear to me that Charlie does mean a 7-stroke 'ruff' ** and is confirmed with the the begining and end note being produced by the same hand. Also it's much easier and practical to 'drag' into that 7-stroke ruff as indicated.

If that was a 7-stroke roll starting on the "e' of 1, I think the notation would be quite different, like this example below...


7_Stroke_Roll.png



**Rolls being produced by alternating double strokes and ruffs produced by alternating single strokes.
 
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dcrigger

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ERROR CORRECTION - I'm sorry, I keep writing "ruff" when I mean, "drag" - when I was taught a 4 stroke ruff was "LRLR" but a 3 stroke ruff was "LLR" - so I still tend to use the two terms interchangeably for a anticipatory double - Sorry for the confusion

So to clarify what I think you mean with Solo 66: it's a 7 stroke because of the ruff, not a 7 stroke PLUS the ruff?
Yes - and the big clue is the sticking. A roll an 1/8th note long at this tempo starting and ending on the Right hand must be a 5 stroke - adding two grace notes, a drag gives us a 7 stroke roll.
 
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dcrigger

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To be fair, my buddy Charlie indicated "7str" above that sticking and I always assumed that meant a roll.
But it doesn't make sense to 'drag' into a roll and it is awarked to end that roll with the thrid stoke accent using the same hand.
But, with the clarification by poco rit. it becomes clear to me that Charlie does mean a 7-stroke 'ruff' ** and is confirmed with the the begining and end note being produced by the same hand. Also it's much easier and practical to 'drag' into that 7-stroke ruff as indicated.

If that was a 7-stroke roll starting on the "e' of 1, I think the notation would be quite different, like this example below...


View attachment 530264


**Rolls being produced by alternating double strokes and ruffs produced by alternating single strokes.

Again - sorry, but never heard of a 7 stroke ruff - particularly not in this era of rudimental writing.

Anyway I disagree - it is quite common to drag into a roll - and at some tempos, I think that drag/roll in #66 would be played just like your example above - 32nd notes starting on "e".

But there is another choice - conceptually - if the tempo gives space for it. Play the drag into the roll as two 32nd note triplets followed by the regular 32nd notes for the 5 stroke part.

32nd note triplets are not at all unusual as they are what we used to play those 7 stroke rolls in the first post (6 notes in the space of an 1/8th note).

Just play two of those notes (32ndT) for the drag, then 32nd notes for the 5 stroke, then I believe we'll be closer to what Wilcoxon intended with that notation. He didn't want to hear the "e" - he wanted to hear grace notes leading into the (&). Two very different sounds - if the tempo allows it.

Remember even in this style of rudimental music - grace notes do not have a "fixed to the beat" rhythmic value.... they are there to create a sound. A flam doesn't necessarily get tighter or looser with a varying tempo - unlike say, open rolls - which do have fixed rhythmic values.
 

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While were on Wilcoxon and 7's, I always wondered why he wrote some 7 stroke rolls in a tradional fashion, where you started and finshed with different hands, and others as starting and ending with the same hand.
My 'inflexible' mind always wrestled with this, obviously favoring the tradional variant. Was Wilcoxon just offering an additional challenge or ..... what am I missing?

See the examples from All American Drummer Solo 61 for a tradional 7-stroke roll and Solo 66 for the same hand variant.


View attachment 530251

View attachment 530252
YES. This same notion happens in Swing Solos sometimes. Thanks. Now i know im not crazy. Some 7 stroke rolls are double strokes and some single strokes. I guess we just have to imply the type of Iroll depending on the first and last stroke thats written. So like in the 2 instances you show, either LLRRLLR OR RLRLRLR.
I don’t think so. I think the R to R is a typo. The double slashes means double stroke open roll.
 

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Huh? No... I really believe that all 7 stroke rolls are 3 doubles and a single. Certainly the ones in these two etudes are.

#61 - normal 7 stroke roll from L to R in the space of an eighth note. (just like the OP's example)

#66 - this one is rhythmically different - yet sticked exactly the same. The idea is to play a normal R to R 5 stroke for an eighth note, but to stick a pair of grace notes just in front of that roll -like a ruff leading into a 5 stroke roll. Like a 7 stroke roll that would start on the "e" of 1 - but just a tad later. So it's like a little anticipation of the "&".

ERROR CORRECTION - I'm sorry, I keep writing "ruff" when I mean, "drag" - when I was taught a 4 stroke ruff was "LRLR" but a 3 stroke ruff was "LLR" - so I still tend to use the two terms interchangeably for a anticipatory double - Sorry for the confusion

I can't imagine any situation where "RLRLRLR" would be considered a 7 stroke roll - I could be wrong, but I've just never heard of anyone referring to seven single strokes as a 7 stroke roll.
Again, I don’t think so. If that’s what was intended then it should be a drag and 5 stroke. He wrote a drag and 7 strokes. Either the 7 strokes is a typo or the R to R is a typo, IMO.
 

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I don’t think so. I think the R to R is a typo. The double slashes means double stroke open roll.
That's what I thought before I posted it and got some feedback. It is absolutely a 7-stroke ruff (with a drag lead in). To clarify, ruffs can be of any measured length equal to that of any roll, the difference is alternating single strokes versus alternating double strokes. They will have similair notation as well and thus need additional information to differentiate the two variants.

Here's some additional reference material, from the Buddy Rich book "Modern Interpretation of Snare Drum Rudiments" published in 1942, three years before Wilcoxon's The AAD.
From Pg. 16, Lesson 4 description: "All short Single Stroke Rolls are known as Ruffs."

Here is the lesson for the 7 Stroke Ruff page 24:

7_Stroke_Ruff_BR-book.png



Here is the lesson for the 7 Stroke Roll page 25:

7_Stroke_Roll_BR-book.png


The musical notation for the ruff and roll is the same! The differentiation comes from the additional sticking/fingering information placed below the rhythm.
 

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That's what I thought before I posted it and got some feedback. It is absolutely a 7-stroke ruff (with a drag lead in). To clarify, ruffs can be of any measured length equal to that of any roll, the difference is alternating single strokes versus alternating double strokes. They will have similair notation as well and thus need additional information to differentiate the two variants.

Here's some additional reference material, from the Buddy Rich book "Modern Interpretation of Snare Drum Rudiments" published in 1942, three years before Wilcoxon's The AAD.
From Pg. 16, Lesson 4 description: "All short Single Stroke Rolls are known as Ruffs."

Here is the lesson for the 7 Stroke Ruff page 24:

View attachment 530265


Here is the lesson for the 7 Stroke Roll page 25:

View attachment 530266

The musical notation for the ruff and roll is the same! The differentiation comes from the additional sticking/fingering information placed below the rhythm.

That’s not right. The double slashes on the 8th note indicate a double stroke open roll. Ruffs are typically notated as grace notes, not assigned time value. If Wilcoxon intended a 7 stroke ruff he should have made it clear. At best the notation is conflicting.
 

poco rit.

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That's what I thought before I posted it and got some feedback. It is absolutely a 7-stroke ruff (with a drag lead in). To clarify, ruffs can be of any measured length equal to that of any roll, the difference is alternating single strokes versus alternating double strokes. They will have similair notation as well and thus need additional information to differentiate the two variants.

Here's some additional reference material, from the Buddy Rich book "Modern Interpretation of Snare Drum Rudiments" published in 1942, three years before Wilcoxon's The AAD.
From Pg. 16, Lesson 4 description: "All short Single Stroke Rolls are known as Ruffs."

Here is the lesson for the 7 Stroke Ruff page 24:

View attachment 530265


Here is the lesson for the 7 Stroke Roll page 25:

View attachment 530266

The musical notation for the ruff and roll is the same! The differentiation comes from the additional sticking/fingering information placed below the rhythm.
Ok i think I got it now. So a 7 Stroke Roll and a 7 Stroke Ruff will sound the same, but the sticking and what we call each of them differs. Im glad a lightening bolt did not strike me dead for calling a 7 Stroke Ruff a Roll…
 

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Ok i think I got it now. So a 7 Stroke Roll and a 7 Stroke Ruff will sound the same, but the sticking and what we call each of them differs. Im glad a lightening bolt did not strike me dead for calling a 7 Stroke Ruff a Roll…
Please see my post #37. Also, below is from Alan Dawson’s Rudimental Ritual. See the 3 and 4 stroke ruffs. This is how ruffs are typically notated - as grace notes not assigned time value.

1638027635429.jpeg
 

poco rit.

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Please see my post #37. Also, below is from Alan Dawson’s Rudimental Ritual. See the 3 and 4 stroke ruffs. This is how ruffs are typically notated - as grace notes not assigned time value.

View attachment 530339
I think it may just be an idiosyncrasy of the Wilcoxon books. I think I get what you mean also, about how normally an eighth note with 2 slashes on the stem is equivalent to 4 32nd notes. But if we do a 5 stroke roll/ruff? in my music in the original post, it just doesnt make sense when we consider the other information Wilcoxon is giving us. Idk..
 


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