Wilcoxon Swing Solos help

toddbishop

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Yes, and most of the other snare books (Whaley, Cirone) I have don't indicate stickings or rates, which tended to frustrate my rigid mind.

Out of the Whaley book "Musical Studies for the Intermediate Snare Drummer," there is a note above one of the pieces and it states; "This study primarily deals primarily with rolls of varying duration. In concert band or orchestral drumming, rolls are not measured. The desried effect is a continuous sound." (my emphasis).
I took this to mean, with slower tempos you're going to have to use more notes and quicker tempos less notes, i.e., different stickings. But in either case, to make it a 'long sound' to the concluding note, that suits the tempo. Most of the snare books I have just sit on the shelf, I have instead favored books like Joel Rothman's 'Rolls, Rolls, Rolls" because it takes a very 'measured' approach, or very specific duration for the rolls used in his studies. Much easier for my noodle to comprehend!!!

The thing that varies with the tempo is the pulsation speed-- the subdivision underlying the roll. The absolute rate of the roll has to be fast enough to get a quality long tone-- depending on the tempo you may use a 32nd note pulsation, or septuplets, or sixtuplets, or quintuplets, 16th notes, 8th triplets, or 8th notes-- talking slow to fast tempos there. That's what all the stuff in the last pages of Stick Control is about.


Just to add to the refernces in the thread....
I don't own the book, (& too afraid to click on a web-based PDF) but I did see this in the Amazon 'preview' of Norman Weinberg's "Guide to Standard Drumset Notation" on abbreviated notes (slashes).

" Rhythmic Abbreviations: An abbreviation consists of a note with one or more oblique slashes drawn through the stem, or centered above or below a whole note. The note indicates the total duration of the abbreviation and the slashes indicate the note values of the abbreviation. "

That's the deal with American roll notation-- it's always abbreviated 32nd notes. Three slashes/beams total, no matter what the actual rhythm of the roll/roll pulsation when the music is played.
 
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toddbishop

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Actually the second roll should be a 5 stroke roll. It is in the notation duration of a 5 stroke roll. If it was to be a 7 stroke roll in that time frame, it should have a 7 above it like the first roll.

* EDIT *

I just noticed the typo on the example.
The NOTATION shows a 5 stroke roll,
BUT
The STICKING implies that it should have been labeled as a 7 stroke roll.

Ignoring the sticking, the notation

1638053083933.png


doesn't indicate any particular type of roll. It could be played as a 9-stroke at a slow tempo. Or an 11 stroke. The sticking, and the fact the we just played an identical 7 stroke roll, suggests that they want us to play a 7. Plus, in rudimental literature, 8th note duration rolls are usually 5s or 7s. But unless the author puts it in, nothing about any roll notation suggests how many strokes should be used to execute it. Other than in rudimental solo pieces or drum transcriptions. Usually it's left up to the discretion of the performer.
 

poco rit.

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Man very very interesting theory discussion of snare drum music. I was never in drum line or studied with a classically trained percussion teacher. Nor have I played out of that many books so far. I come from orchestra, playing the violin. In orchestral music for strings, there is absolutely no equivocation when it comes to what the composer intended the player to play. So its interesting how in snare drum music and rudimental drumming, a rudiment may be called something different depending on who studied from who in what decade, it may be notated differently depending on the era the book was written, yet may be intended to sound the same. Very enlightening discussion for me.
 

Matched Gripper

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Man very very interesting theory discussion of snare drum music. I was never in drum line or studied with a classically trained percussion teacher. Nor have I played out of that many books so far. I come from orchestra, playing the violin. In orchestral music for strings, there is absolutely no equivocation when it comes to what the composer intended the player to play. So its interesting how in snare drum music and rudimental drumming, a rudiment may be called something different depending on who studied from who in what decade, it may be notated differently depending on the era the book was written, yet may be intended to sound the same. Very enlightening discussion for me.
Yup! Drum notation is not as standardized as other instrument.
 

Seb77

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The first one I would play with a 16th note triplet pulsation; the second with a 16th note pulsation-- accent on the 1, doubles on the e&a. Normally today that would be notated like this:

View attachment 530484

I don't think traditional rudimental guys were all that strong with their rhythm-- a lot of them probably played both things the same way-- either way. Even as an accidental septuplet, by dropping in the first left hand double too soon.

That's actually one of my favorite ways to play things like that, creates a more legato sound. If you use a triplet pulsation, a 5-stroke roll at some point becomes 16th quintuplets. R llrrL rrllR ...-->RllrrLrrllR...
 

toddbishop

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That's actually one of my favorite ways to play things like that, creates a more legato sound. If you use a triplet pulsation, a 5-stroke roll at some point becomes 16th quintuplets. R llrrL rrllR ...-->RllrrLrrllR...
It's a naturally-occurring form of quintuplets/septuplets in drumming. They specifically correct for that in drum corps-- getting your left hand up before the first double to keep it in a 16th note timing. Kids play them as septuplets unless you train them out of it.

I found a video of an amateur trad drum line that plays 5s that way:


Vs. this clearly corps (or corps-style)-trained kid who puts a big space before the roll:

 

dcrigger

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Man very very interesting theory discussion of snare drum music. I was never in drum line or studied with a classically trained percussion teacher. Nor have I played out of that many books so far. I come from orchestra, playing the violin. In orchestral music for strings, there is absolutely no equivocation when it comes to what the composer intended the player to play. So its interesting how in snare drum music and rudimental drumming, a rudiment may be called something different depending on who studied from who in what decade, it may be notated differently depending on the era the book was written, yet may be intended to sound the same. Very enlightening discussion for me.
But in some ways - it's not totally unrelated with what happens with other instruments... say with violin sections with bowing. I get there are lots of conventions with that and ways of really spelling it out - but in practical use, all bowings aren't marked and the conventions don't always apply or are ambiguous enough that concert masters often need to decide and dictate bowing.

Todd is totally right that so much of this discussion of how the number many strokes to played is written is pretty exclusive to the world of rudimental etudes as far as individual playing goes. In general, a roll an 1/8th note long should sound smooth, full, and imitate a continuous sound (rather than a series of notes) - meaning at 120bpm it will likely be a 5 stroke roll, at 90bpm - 7 strokes and at 60bpm - 9 strokes or more. The rule being smoothly fill the space.

And just like solo violinist with their bowing, an orchestral snare drummer is left to decide how exactly to do that themselves. But....

...put 4 snare drummers all playing the same part - or even two snares in an orchestral setting - and they'll need to "stick" it the same - again just like a section of violins. Just like with strings, it doesn't always matter - but sometimes it really sounds better when all of the bows are moving in lock step.

So in practice, it's really not the different - but things like the Wilcoxon books are really comprised of "etudes" not actual performance pieces (though obviously they are used in that manner in certain settings)
 


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