Will The Istanbul Agop 30th Anniversary Patina With Time?

codydee12

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When I look at the cover of Carter Mclean's book or look at multiple folks on this site, or even just sit behind my buddy's 30th, it gives way to a completely different vibe than my 30th that I just purchased in November of this past year. I read on some other posts on DFO of the changes from the original 30ths to what is being released now. Seems like the new ones are thinner, flatter, and have less of the dark patina that the old ones have.

Will the dark gold color of this new 30th change with time to look more like the original versions? In my opinion, the older ones looks and sound much closer to the old Ks (which is why I bought this ride in the first place chasing that sound).

Honestly, I am to the point where I would like to trade mine out for an older 30th ride if anyone has one that they are looking to let go of.

Anyways, thanks for the help!

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codydee12

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curious; where's the ink logo
The 30ths don't have any logos with ink. They actually only have a small stamp in the actual cymbal that says Istanbul 30th. Pretty cool little feature of the series.
 
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paulwells73

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The 30ths came out in 2010, and for the first year or so, they actually looked a lot like your cymbal - very heavily hammered, and with a gold-ish color that had little to no patina. The main difference is that the first year 20 and 22s had a very high profile, and the hihats were super thin. I still have a set of those from the very first batch, and while they’ve aged and developed some patina, they don’t look much like the ones from a year or two later. I got another 22 in early 2012, and it looks a lot like what you’re describing - heavy patina, almost dirty looking, but flatter and a bit more "friendly" to play than the earlier ones.

I have a number of other 30ths from throughout the years, and I can’t really say that any of them are more or less Old-K-like than any others. I don’t have any from the past couple of years (the most recent 30ths I own are a 20 and 22 from 2017), and I do agree that they are always changing and evolving. But they’re always in the Old K ballpark, in my opinion.

It’s possible that one of the earlier ones with a heavy patina could be a bit darker and dryer than a brand new one (my 22 from 2012 has a nice dry bite to the stick, and is very similar to some Old Ks I’ve owned/played) I’ve also played Old Ks that are washy and zingy, maybe like one of these newer 30ths without patina. If you want very dark and dry, I’d actually recommend a thinner (but not too thin) Agop Turk or Signature.
 

marc3k

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Interesting discussion. I only have a 22 from 2018 I believe - it's a really nice cymbal - but I guess there is something special about the older versions of them.

Chad Anderson plays some of the finest 30th cymbals I ever heard in a video here: (note, it's from 2010)
 

codydee12

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The 30ths came out in 2010, and for the first year or so, they actually looked a lot like your cymbal - very heavily hammered, and with a gold-ish color that had little to no patina. The main difference is that the first year 20 and 22s had a very high profile, and the hihats were super thin. I still have a set of those from the very first batch, and while they’ve aged and developed some patina, they don’t look much like the ones from a year or two later. I got another 22 in early 2012, and it looks a lot like what you’re describing - heavy patina, almost dirty looking, but flatter and a bit more "friendly" to play than the earlier ones.

I have a number of other 30ths from throughout the years, and I can’t really say that any of them are more or less Old-K-like than any others. I don’t have any from the past couple of years (the most recent 30ths I own are a 20 and 22 from 2017), and I do agree that they are always changing and evolving. But they’re always in the Old K ballpark, in my opinion.

It’s possible that one of the earlier ones with a heavy patina could be a bit darker and dryer than a brand new one (my 22 from 2012 has a nice dry bite to the stick, and is very similar to some Old Ks I’ve owned/played) I’ve also played Old Ks that are washy and zingy, maybe like one of these newer 30ths without patina. If you want very dark and dry, I’d actually recommend a thinner (but not too thin) Agop Turk or Signature.

This is really helpful! I watched your videos (great playing by the way). It’s nice to have the same recording setup with the same player when you can’t play the cymbals yourself. Is the 2.1k or 2.2k grams videos of a heavier patina? It was tough to tell from the angle.

I love the dry, quick sound of those. My newer 30th (weight 2253) is a bit washier than the two referenced. Between those videos and the video carter McLean has of all of his rides, I really do enjoy the sound of the version of the patina ride.

I have a handful of signatures and really enjoy them. There is a different characteristic that I am chasing that I have found to be pretty specific to the 30ths.
 

codydee12

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Interesting discussion. I only have a 22 from 2018 I believe - it's a really nice cymbal - but I guess there is something special about the older versions of them.

Chad Anderson plays some of the finest 30th cymbals I ever heard in a video here: (note, it's from 2010)
Love that guys playing! Seems like he is probably on one of the earliest versions. I think (at least from the timeline I can gather so far) I actually like the mid-year creations. Probably more like your 2018.

I think it’s been in the last 2 years that it has really gone back to the original, more golden appearance with a washier sound (I say this like I know that I am talking about...which I am just guessing :p).
 

richiegarcia4

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I bought a pair of the first gen hats off reverb and they look just like that cymbal. The sound was not what I expected: too washy. I had played a pair of the patina'd version at my local shop and was expecting that sound/feel: a little stiffer and drier, I suppose.
 

codydee12

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I bought a pair of the first gen hats off reverb and they look just like that cymbal. The sound was not what I expected: too washy. I had played a pair of the patina'd version at my local shop and was expecting that sound/feel: a little stiffer and drier, I suppose.
That’s a great way to describe it - stiffer and drier. They patina version has a shorter sustain as well.

Did you end up finding another set that was closer to what your shop had or just move on from the 30ths?
 

richiegarcia4

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I already own a pair of 60's A's that are perfect to my ears, so I just moved on.
I also own a 20" with the patina that I bought from the shop. It has that nice dry dark sound that sounds great when you're tapping on it in the shop, but starts honking when you get a good wash going. If you put any amount of tape on it, it just sounds dead. I really have love/hate that ride.
To answer your posted question, I don't think I'll see that kind of patina build-up in my lifetime.

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f.stahlenius

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"Will the dark gold color of this new 30th change with time to look more like the original versions?"

Not sure. Perhaps if you clean it, it will develop a patina faster?

Anyway, posting some pics of my 30th's.

You can clearly see the differences between early, 1st gen. hats and more recent. Lathing, bell, but also stamp (they changed it to laser stamp after a while).

Also, see differences between my (I'd say 2014-2017?) 22" (2016g) and my 24", compared to my 22" Agop 30th Frank Gegerle MKII (2026g)

Plus, the most beautiful 22" 30th I've ever seen. Sadly not mine. A heavier one at 2450g - a nice weight for a 30th if you ask me! You can hear it here:
 

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marc3k

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compared to my 22" Agop 30th Frank Gegerle MKII (2026g)
Wow you have one of those Frank Gegerle ones? I understand you already owned a couple of 30th cymbals - do you think Frank Gegerle really managed to improve the sound with his modifications? Do you like yours and do you think the price is justified? I see some of them for sale sometimes and wonder if people did expect too much from them...
 

f.stahlenius

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Wow you have one of those Frank Gegerle ones? I understand you already owned a couple of 30th cymbals - do you think Frank Gegerle really managed to improve the sound with his modifications? Do you like yours and do you think the price is justified? I see some of them for sale sometimes and wonder if people did expect too much from them...
I bought mine used. I really like it - nice profile, beautiful stick sound, best suited for lighter playing because of its light weight, but never "gets aways".

Previous owner made this video:

Here's a video from my IG, with the 2016g 22" 30th to the left: http://instagr.am/p/CMzhcYRBHfE/
I think the price is justified, perhaps not because of modifications but because of selection (ears, experience, knowing what is worth "working on"/modify). Frank has some 13" hats and 23" rides (those sizes are not in the 30th catalog) in store at the moment, as well as some really interesting 21" prototypes. Also, there are differences between his "lines" and it's really up to what you prefer - some of "his" cymbals, I fell, are more in line with the "factory finished" Agop's, while some of them are more like the oddities some of us miss from early Agop 30th/Signature gen. I'd say: if you find one you like, don't hesitate, as these are fine instruments!
 

codydee12

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I already own a pair of 60's A's that are perfect to my ears, so I just moved on.
I also own a 20" with the patina that I bought from the shop. It has that nice dry dark sound that sounds great when you're tapping on it in the shop, but starts honking when you get a good wash going. If you put any amount of tape on it, it just sounds dead. I really have love/hate that ride.
To answer your posted question, I don't think I'll see that kind of patina build-up in my lifetime.

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That's helpful insight as well! At this point, I think I have my question answered - it won't patina to the point of altering the sound to be like some of the older versions of the series on the market. Looks like I will have to stay on the hunt for someone selling a 30th with the characteristics we have all expounded on in this post.
 

codydee12

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"Will the dark gold color of this new 30th change with time to look more like the original versions?"

Not sure. Perhaps if you clean it, it will develop a patina faster?

Anyway, posting some pics of my 30th's.

You can clearly see the differences between early, 1st gen. hats and more recent. Lathing, bell, but also stamp (they changed it to laser stamp after a while).

Also, see differences between my (I'd say 2014-2017?) 22" (2016g) and my 24", compared to my 22" Agop 30th Frank Gegerle MKII (2026g)

Plus, the most beautiful 22" 30th I've ever seen. Sadly not mine. A heavier one at 2450g - a nice weight for a 30th if you ask me! You can hear it here:
I am glad you put the pics in with this. I hadn't heard of the Frank - altered cymbals. Looks like he has some 20's and 24's for sale? that is a real stiff price to get that shipped to the US, though.

Also, thanks for sharing the recordings. That sent me down a rabbit hole for the last half hour listening to the different 30ths he has modified and oh my goodness they sound GOOD!!!! I haven't ever seen a Frank cymbal for sale. Is that something that gets listed on DFO or Reverb? Or are the other places to keep an eye out?

At this point, I have come to the conclusion that I am going to buy a older 30th that has the heavier patina to get the sound I am searching for. And if I happen to come across a Frank Gegele for less than $700....I might grab that as well.
 

f.stahlenius

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Just to clarify for everyone reading: his work/"creations" are sold over at the Hieber-Lindberg music store in Munich. Guess there used to be many more, but quite a lot of 20"s and a 24" left, and also the newer sizes are up now (13" and 23") but no sound on those.

As they are sold in Germany, I'd check a place like this: https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-gegerle/k0

As you can see, there's a 20" 1971 and 22" MKV for sale, but price is a bit high, at 1149 EUR for the 22". Has video, though, so you can see/hear them :)

Other than that, perhaps check used listings in France (https://www.leboncoin.fr) and the Netherlands (https://www.marktplaats.nl), as well as https://www.facebook.com/groups/663975640317966.

Hope it helps!
 

richiegarcia4

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Have you guys noticed a break-in period with these cymbals or does the sound stay pretty consistent?
 

f.stahlenius

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Have you guys noticed a break-in period with these cymbals or does the sound stay pretty consistent?
I feel they stay pretty consistent. My hearing/opinion/mood always have more influence than external ”grime”, break-in periods, patina, age, and such - but of course, some changes do occur. Not a metal smith myself, but after resting, and given that the cymbal is structurally “round and sound” (that is: it can handle vibrations and even out) I think things are pretty “set”.

Though, the new 22” Agop Traditional Jazz ride I have (series released earlier this year), have gone through some phases - perhaps because its so new, softer, doesn’t have same patina as 30th... Anyway, never really experienced this before.
 

bergheimer

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I own(ed)/play(ed) 30th Annerversary cymbals of all three periods: not empirically proven, but I would destinguish 3 main periods.

The first, from 2010 until 2012 (roughly) was the first period, when the cymbals had that extreme umbrella profile and kind of high pitch, very similar to some old K's. It has this golden color, fully lathed and they aswome when they age. The hats were super thin (below 600g for a 14"), the rides around 2300-2400 for a 22". Mine was re-lathed later from Michael Paiste down to 2200g. It sounds killer, but very special! Not "easy" to play, but tons of character. It has 5 rivets, but I prefer to play it without any rivets. You can see the wonderful patina in the attached photo.

The second version from 2012 to at least 2016 was the one with the patina, only partly lathed. They are dryer, but have those wonderful overtones. I love them, they look so beautiful and some (not all) really sound beautiful. They can sound very trashy, others are more on the cleanr side, some are very dry, others are more on the gongy side. I play an awsome 24", it is warped and not evenly plain, but who cares. Its a beauty! It is this one:


The third period must have started sometime after 2016. I was in Istanbul (not in the factory, but at the shops selling the agops) in 2018 and bought one of those newer 22" 30th, golden color, no patina, rather flat profile. It sounded a bit cleaner but had too much wash for my taste so I ended uo selling it again.
 

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