Yamaha 9000 DA - Trying to Solve Mystery

[npbrian]

[SIZE=14.6667px]I currently have a made in Taiwan Yamaha 9000 DA series kit (12”, 13”, 16”, 22” in standard depths) on hold at Guitar Center. I believe they’re from 1979. I’m trying to determine what these shells are made of. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.6667px]The following threads offer some input as to the DA series most likely being made of camellia/Philippine mahogany, but it seems difficult to know if they’re conclusive:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.6667px]http://www.drumforum.org/index.php?/topic/50116-79-yamaha-9000-series-shell/[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.6667px]http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74277[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.6667px]I’m not able to view the mysterious catalogs referenced in the above threads, perhaps because they’re four years old? Maybe I'm doing something wrong or not seeing a link...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.6667px]When I input the badge numbers (TT/FT/BD9XXDA) into the Yamaha vault, the shells of course come back as being camellia/Philippine mahogany. I’ve seen the references to the Yamaha reps agreeing with this conclusion. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.6667px]Looking at the Yamaha catalog from 1978 (see attached photo), the shells from the 9000 series (It appears the DA designation didn’t exist yet, at least in the catalogs) are listed as being all birch, [/SIZE][SIZE=14.6667px]6-ply.[/SIZE][SIZE=14.6667px] What’s interesting is that the 7000 series is listed in this 1978 catalog as being camellia/Philippine mahogany, [/SIZE][SIZE=14.6667px]9-ply[/SIZE][SIZE=14.6667px]. This would lead me to believe unless there's some crazy coincidence, that possibly Yamaha’s records are showing that those 1978 7000-series shells briefly became the 9000DA[/SIZE][SIZE=14.6667px] [/SIZE][SIZE=14.6667px]in 1979[/SIZE][SIZE=14.6667px] [/SIZE][SIZE=14.6667px]before returning to 7000, becoming 8000, or simply being discontinued. Whether or not that actually happened seems like a mystery to me. Of course I can’t seem to find an American catalog from 1979 or 1980. Anyone have one?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.6667px]Furthermore, seeing the different materials correspond with different numbers of plies got me thinking that if I can determine the number of plies on this kit, I might have an answer to the shell construction. If this kit is 6-ply, seems likely they’re birch, if it’s 9-ply, most likely they’re camellia/Philippine mahogany. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.6667px]The friendly and super helpful Guitar Center drum manager took a couple close-up photos of the 12” tom shell and sent them to me. One is of the bearing edge, the other of the shell’s interior to get a good view of the color & grain pattern. To me, it looks like 6-ply to me (the white outside edge is the wrap), however I’m having a tough time counting as I’m no expert on ply thickness/construction. What do you guys think? 6 or 9? Also, do the colors look more like birch or something else? I don’t own any Yamaha birch drums so I can't compare, and seeing photos of dark stained later Recording Custom interiors doesn’t help much. I know that Philippine mahogany is dark, but I have no clue what camellia looks like in drums, although looking around Google Images it appears to be light, almost maple-like in color. Any thoughts on these photos would be greatly appreciated. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.6667px]To further complicate matters, the 1981 catalog mentions the 9000 series as being 6-ply birch OR 6-ply birch/camellia. Argh![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.6667px]If anyone has bearing edge photos of another 9000 series tom that is definitely all birch (9000 GA, etc.), or similar close-ups of the 9-ply camellia/Philippine mahogany or the 1981 6-ply camellia/birch shells, it would be super helpful to compare! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.6667px]The price on this kit is very reasonable ($600) given the overall condition, but I think I’m more interested in getting an all-birch version of this period of Yamaha. If anything, I hope this gives people more information on the 9000 DA’s. I know this post is probably ridiculous, but I want to know![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14.6667px]Any input as to what they’re made of would be greatly appreciated. Thanks![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.6667px] [/SIZE]

 

[joao3208]

9000 DA drums were Birch/Phillipine Mahogany as you said (Pre-Tour series).
9000 D drums were all birch (pre-Recording Custom).
These were made in Taiwan. Great quality drums.

Around 1980 they resumed in Japan, can be found in the 1981 catalog. At one point the birch 9000's they introduced the single Recording Custom hi-tension lugs.
9000 DA
9000 DE

1982-1983:
Yamaha Recording Standard (same birch ply's, the only difference was these came wrapped with the exception of the Real Wood finish, and the bass drums included a Real Wood natural finish.
Yamaha Recording Custom RA (same ply's, lacquered finish)

Yamaha Recording Custom RC, RF: 1984-2010, 45-degree bearing edges, power sizes introduced, all lacquered.

 

[npbrian]

Joao3208 - Thanks for the info. The Yamaha vault & representatives claim the DA drums were camellia/Philippine mahogany, not birch/Philipine mahogany. According to the company, there was no birch in these drums unless I'm missing something.

So looking at the close-up photos, do you think the shell is birch or camellia/Philippine mahogany? Any thoughts on how many plies there are?

Thanks!

 

[xsabers]

Looks like 6 to me.

 

[npbrian]

I agree, looks like six, or less than nine at least.

Does anyone have any bearing edge photos of this era of Yamaha for comparison? There's so much speculation/conflicting information/assumption out there, but it seems like the proof is in the plies!

 

[joao3208]

6-ply All birch 1979 912-D rack tom.

 

[bernard]

6-ply All birch 1979 912-D rack tom.

Ouch! That drum is so beautiful it hurts.

One of those natural finished, split lugged, 70's Recording kits should have been mine in 1981. For some hard to explain reasons this never happened (which is why I'm now still a happy player of a DIY Keller kit - but maybe I could have had both?).

 

[kzac]

About Product Engineering Changes (Typical)
Variant one of Most products is sold with a part number without a suffix. Later as things change there are two methods to represent changes which become the suffix to the part number. Usually these suffix are indicated by alpha characters.

Pn Suffex Versions
A single character will represent a "Major" product change (version) such as the case stated above with the single alpha character "D".......A dual character will usually represent a "Minor" change to an existing version

Major VS Minor change
Physical changes to the product (shell materials or hardware, drum depth, maybe bearing edges etc), would be considered major changes... An example would be the change from YD-9000 tail light lugs to the high tension lugs, as that change would involve new materials, and new drilling fixtures for the revised hole positions.

Minor changes to products are usually items which do not require a change to the physical product or its manufacturing process they include items such as product visual appeal (color, stain, wrap, thicker or thinner rims, badges etc), and may include items such as bearing edges or sanding of the exterior and interior of the shell,
A change to a bearing edge could be considered major as it involves a process tooling change and a different drum sound. This is why I have placed it in both categories..
The YD-9000 (Recording) did undergo changes to its bearing edges in the late 1970s and early 1980s, it was constructed with 3 bearing edges I am aware of 60 deg, 30 deg, and 45 deg. Kits might have been sold with variations of the bearing edges one being 60 deg and the other 45 deg for example, both appearing in the same catalog.

What is being observed by "DA" is a minor change to product Version "D", so therefore its less likely its anything major such as drum shell material.

There is no printed catalog data which indicates Yamaha ever constructed the YD-9000 (or recording series) out of anything but Birch.

The Catalog information for the 70s and 80s indicates there is a difference between USA and Asia products
The Asian catalogs indicate the following kits and shell construction
YD-9000 = All Birch shell
YD-7000 = Birch P Mahog Birch shell
YD 6000 = P Mahog, Beech and probably Camilla (two differing inner plies)with high tension single lugs
YD 5000 = P Mahog appears to be Beech or Camilla single inner ply shell
YD 3000 = P Mahog shell

The USA started with only two kits (1978 catalog)
YD-9000 with the early tail light lugs, advertised as birch shells
YD-7000 which is advertised as Camilla Birch shell with triangle lugs (probably the 5000 shell sold in Asia and elsewhere)

Later the USA kits would change to names and not numbers (see 1980s catalogs)
Recording = YD-9000 Asian variants with birch shells
Tour = YD-7000 Asian variant kit with taillight lugs and a later Rock tour with high tension lugs like the RC
Stage = YD-3000 Asian variant kit initially and later the shells changed to match the YD-5000 Asian variant

Its simple to look this data up using the historical catalogs. provided by Vintage Drum Guide and Drum Archive as well as other sources ...... That said.....

People wanting to falsify their drums could easily remove the badges from the Rock Tour custom and install badges from a damaged or destroyed RC power kit Making it appear as though the vary similar Rock Tour kit was a Power Recording Custom kit. Since Yamaha did not stamp the shells on the interior, there is no valid way to tell the difference between a real RC kit and a Rock Tour kit which has been falsified with RC power badges. The same holds true for an early Tour Custom kit which has been falsified using early YD-9000 badges. One can easily purchase YD-9000 (Recording) series badges on e-bay. its not difficult to construct either a false YD-9000 or Recording kit from either the Tour Custom or Rock Tour Custom kits.

 

[Tama CW]

That previous post includes incorrect statements on Yamaha 9000DA drums.....that are at odds with Yamaha's own written literature. But that would be clear to anyone who read this entire 4 yr old thread. The last post was also put into my own 2018 thread by Kzac. I guess the poster figures if they put it in 2 places....it would become 2X as more potent.....not necessarily more correct though. Engineering "best practices" or theory is not evidence against actual photos and Yamaha drum catalog descriptions. Best practices are not always instituted. Where best practices instituted in the 1960's and 1970's when dating and serializing drums? Clearly not. They threw engineering best practices out the window at times.

Here's the link to my 2018 thread on this same subject. Not a bad idea to link these 2 threads here for anyone else doing research on this topic.

My earlier thread on pre-recording custom/series 9000 shells (1977-1981).

Today (6/23/2019) I posted 3 links in my thread where Yamaha clearly states that they made 9000 series shells in other than all Birch, specifically in Birch and Camelia.
That's the 9000DA, ET900 concert toms, and 8000 Tour Series style shells. Kzac states that 9000/900 series shells were always all birch. Clearly they are not. And you will find OEM written documentation to refute Kzac's theory in the Yamaha 1978 drum catalog (page 23 of 48..) and the 1981 Yamaha drum catalog (page 10). Both locations show 9000 shells with "birch/camelia." (ie something other than all birch).

And in Yamaha's Drum Vault ID wizard (just type in "FT-916DA" for a 16" 9000DA floor tom). See Drum Vault link below showing this is a birch/camelia shell...or at least that such a mixed ply 9000 shell was indeed made. I've seen numerous examples of 9000DA bearing edges, and 99% of them did not show 6 even birch plies....but rather clearly uneven plies of thin/fat/thin/fat/thin, etc. wood. That's not how all birch 1976-1982 shells were constructed. Birch shells show fairly even ply thickness. - not fat inner plies of a softer wood like camelia, mahogany, poplar, basswood, etc. It would not be efficient, let alone an engineering "best practice" to put together a 6 ply all birch shell with wildly varying widths of the birch plies. It would be more costly too.

Yamaha Drum Vault ID

3 different places over 3 yrs from Yamaha themselves? I'd call that pretty good evidence. Just follow the facts. 9000 series shells with Birch/Camelia were made. Yamaha says it's so.

 

[Tama CW]

People wanting to falsify their drums could easily remove the badges from the Rock Tour custom and install badges from a damaged or destroyed RC power kit Making it appear as though the vary similar Rock Tour kit was a Power Recording Custom kit. Since Yamaha did not stamp the shells on the interior, there is no valid way to tell the difference between a real RC kit and a Rock Tour kit which has been falsified with RC power badges. The same holds true for an early Tour Custom kit which has been falsified using early YD-9000 badges. One can easily purchase YD-9000 (Recording) series badges on e-bay. its not difficult to construct either a false YD-9000 or Recording kit from either the Tour Custom or Rock Tour Custom kits.

Yamaha RC or 9000D fakes? It may be possible, but probably not easy. For one, any recording custom kit has to have the inner shell painted black. The 1982-1983 era drums would have the 30 deg bearing edges and black paint on those edges. The later years have clear bearing edges and 45 deg edges. So the forger has to get those details correct for one. And they need to make it look like Yamaha factory made them. There are nuances to these drums that I'd bet many forgers would mess up on.

The early YD9000 kits typically bring far less money than a recording custom kit. I'm not sure why someone would try to fake a YD9000. You'd probably invest a lot of time and labor in the alterations for not much return.

The Rock Tour Custom kits used very different badging and serializing than the YRC's....not to mention the unique resin phenolic sheathing applied to the interior. You're going to have to sand down those RTC shells to hide the evidence of the finish and the big rectangular badges that sit apart from the vent hole. That's a lot of time and labor to sand and repaint all the drum shells involved. The RTC kicks tend to be quite deep - the tom mounts generally sit closer to center than they do on most YRCs and 9000D's that never came in Turbo sizes....and not so many in "force/power" sizes. And the real money shot....the RTC shells have more plies than the YRC's. 8 ply on the toms and 11 on the kick. And the RTC's are alternating birch/mahogany plies - which means differences in thickness. Since YRC's of that period have clear bearing edges, very uniform birch plies, these faults would jump right out. If you painted the bearing edges and inner shells black to hide those facts, you would need to have badges dating to 1982/83...the years they painted the bearing edges. And isn't the total shell thickness different as well?? The YRC's and RTC's don't share all the same colors either. You can only use a hot red, stage white, or solid black RTC kit to mess around with. So many of these are in Turbo Sizes you'll be cutting all the shells down, drilling new lug holes, etc. What a nightmare.

This would not be an easy project to do imo. And since the RTC's tend to be somewhat costly drums, you're ruining a good set of drums to fake a better set. Your time is probably much better spent scouring CL for an RTC or YRC that is priced at half value....that does happen more often than you'd think. In fact if you can't find a quality vintage drum kit every month or so on your local CL that is selling for 10-50% of true value, you aren't looking hard enough.

Maybe someone out there is taking the time to fake these drums that could at least fool a newbie or a pawn shop owner. But, I've yet to see or hear of one. There aren't even that many Yamaha RC or RTC or 8000/7000/5000 kits showing up on the market. I'm lucky if I see a couple of those kits each year in my region. They're pretty scarce. And so few people know this brand very well, most buyers won't pay up for it. Many sellers under-price them. If someone is willing to pay up....they probably know their Yamaha drums and won't get fooled by some guy's amateurish fakes.

 

[Tama CW]

Not splitting hairs. There was more than one inside color for those drums. The thin shelled lacquered edge drums go back before the 80s. The clean sharp edges also appear prior to 82.
Not arguing. Just adding info to the discussion.

I don't know the YRC's that well, only the details on drums I've owned or seen....not that many. The 1977-1982 Yamaha kit drums I've owned or seen in person all seemed to have the more rounded edges. Then again eye-balling a 30 vs 45 deg edge on a worn drum might only be easy for someone who has done it dozens of times. Photos won't help much here as those are often take from straight above the bearing edges.

In thinking through the faking of a YRC or 9000D kit....it's a lot more involved than I first thought. And I'm sure I've not even touched the surface on the variations one has to consider. There are a lot easier ways to try and make a score in the drum hobby than that. If you're painting and carpentry skills are that good....go build some luxury cabinets or paint some specialty items for a customer....and make far more per hour than trying to fake a Recording Custom drum.

 

[kzac]

9000 DA drums were Birch/Phillipine Mahogany as you said (Pre-Tour series).
9000 D drums were all birch (pre-Recording Custom).
These were made in Taiwan. Great quality drums.

Around 1980 they resumed in Japan, can be found in the 1981 catalog. At one point the birch 9000's they introduced the single Recording Custom hi-tension lugs.
9000 DA
9000 DE

1982-1983:
Yamaha Recording Standard (same birch ply's, the only difference was these came wrapped with the exception of the Real Wood finish, and the bass drums included a Real Wood natural finish.
Yamaha Recording Custom RA (same ply's, lacquered finish)

Yamaha Recording Custom RC, RF: 1984-2010, 45-degree bearing edges, power sizes introduced, all lacquered.

No data can be found to support your hypothesis that the DA revision of the USA YD-9000 was a drum shell material change.
As a matter of fact, all marketing claims by the manufacturer documented historically within their catalogs indicate all YD-9000 (also called the Recording series) were constructed using 100% birch shells.
Second, engineering changes don't occur the way you have stated......
A single alpha character as a suffix to a part number, indicates a running major change to that part number (In this case BD-922 D is the 4th major revision of that part number)
A dual alpha character as a suffix to a part number indicates a running minor change of what ever the first alpha character happens to be (in this case a D version)
Therefore, a DA change is a minor revision to version D. .......... Drum shell material makeup would not be considered a minor change to the product

I think where you might be getting confused is in understanding the products marketed and the variation between Japan and other markets
Looking at Japan catalogs one can understand there were 5 drum products marketed from the original manufacturer those include the:
YD-9000 (all Birch shell)
YD-7000 (Birch P Mahg Birch shell) - This series would be the Tour and Rock Tour series sold in the USA with different lugs.
YD-6000 (P Mahg, Beech and another wood ply probably Camilla), with long single piece lugs
YD-5000 (P Mahg and Beech or Falkata shell)
YD-3000 (P Mahg shell)

The USA market started with only two variants from the 1975 Japan product revision (above)
YD-9000 (all Birch shell shell)
YD-7000 (P Mahog Camilla shell), not the same shell as the YD-7000 shell offered in Japan its most likely a YD-5000 or YD-6000 shell

Later the USA market would change from YD designations to names (occurred in the early 1980s)
Recording = YD-9000 (all birch shells) later acquired high tension lugs (badges indicate 900 series ... exa.. BD-922)
Tour = YD-7000 Japan shell with the early YD-9000 taillight lugs (badges indicate 800 series), Japan did not have an 800 series badge, therefore, this version was specific to the US market
Stage = YD-3000 Japan version initially but later became the YD-5000 shell with the introduction of the Stage 2 series, when the bass drum spurs changed from retractable to externally mounted (badges indicate 500 series)

One needs to understand that changing shell material construction in a manufacturing process is not something easily achieved (flippant). Its more likely that the 5 shell designs maintained by Japan were spread across all the kits they offered internationally, regardless of the factory they were constructed in. Information from catalogs indicates they maintained those drum shell versions for several decades, through the Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia and UK manufacturing facilities.

I know it frustrating attempting to figure things out without having the OE drawings in hand. However if you consider where the basis for engineering was (Japan) and how the products spread forth to international markets from that origin, and if one understands minor and major revisions, then one can start to understand more clearly what occurred in the various markets where products were sold.

What I have been able to figure out from various pictures of badges of the YD-7000 sold all over the world is this
1- The Taiwan made kits are all version D = Date coded 1977-OM, 1979- PN, PK, PR etc These kits were observed in the USA and Europe
2- The Japan made kits came in two versions and were all observed in Japan ..................
Version A = Date Coded 1980 QP and QY
Version G = Date Coded 1981-HZ, 1982- IM, and 83- JP

 

[Tama CW]

All the same "stock OEM" information regurgitated yet again and nothing to refute what everyone else has posted in this thread about 9000 DA drums? We don't need factory drawings from 1977-1981. We have the drums as physical evidence today....which beats any old drawing. A dwg is what should have been done. A drum in hand....is what WAS done. No frustration at all on my part as I go by physical evidence. How many automobiles are built on the assembly line via drawings/prints/CAD etc? And how many have deviations from OEM when completed? Lots of them. Drums would be no different. Yamaha has stated in their literature numerous times that they made 9000 shells out of camelia and birch. Inspection of the drums (see photos earlier in this thread) support that as well. It's no hypothesis....it's fact. All the factory pages of information you copy verbatim and paste here won't change those facts. I prefer original research and thinking outside the box. You need to when it comes to vintage drums.

As far as those date codes you posted at the end of your last spiel. That is incomplete. You didn't do enough original research on your own. You forgot the "X" code for 1980 which was used in place of the "Q" at times. Per Yamaha's "official" 1981-1989 dating guide the "X" could only be used to signify the 2nd letter, for the month of "October." But I've reported, documented, and shown photos of MIT ROC Yamaha badges stamped "XX" - "XP" or other "XZ" for example. That shows some worker took it upon themselves to use the "X" to denote the zero year. It's a "roman numeral" for "decade" after all. It works fine. They are out there. More proof that Yamaha can be wrong and didn't always follow their own "engineering practices." You can't believe everything Yamaha posts - just most of it. Hence the need to review the actual drums/evidence. Dwg's don't help.

Though I have to give some credit to KZAC for noting that the 1980's Yamaha dating guide does back fit into the 1977-1980 period....and past 1989 as well. Note the 1977 date codes listed in the post above. I've found the same thing. And there's a current thread by Constanza about some Japan YRS's he picked up in a rare silver or gray silk finish with date codes beginning with "N"....or 1977 (ie NN)...where the badges have pointed edges on the top....by 1979 or so those badges are gone and all corners become rounded. Everyone jumped on the 1981-1983 time frame because that matches when that finish was marketed in Japan. The problem is, those drums don't have the leading letters of H, I, J or the proper badge style to support those years. I've found no inconsistencies in Yamaha drum dating from 1977-1990...except to use both Q and X to denote 1980. I haven't run across a 1990 drum using "X" as the first letter.

 

[Tama CW]

I've only had these drums 3 months so I didn't remember how interesting they were. 3 Yamaha 9000D real wood drums sitting in my drum room with XH date codes....13, 16 toms and 22 in kick. The 12 inch tom is PZ for Dec 1979. So all 4 drums were made from Dec '79 to Jan '80. And the proof is in my home. So much for Q have to signify the "O" year. Sorry Yamaha. You didn't follow your own "engineering best practices." Per their drum dating table....this is "impossible." Better yet I think the 13 inch tom might be the first or second drum made in 1980 out of Taiwan ROC....XH 5001 January 1980. All the serial numbers are in the first 10 for January. It's cool that I ended up with an XH dated kit.




.