Zildjian 21" ride 60s short stamp puzzle...

Controls Guy

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2021
Messages
7
Reaction score
11
I'm new at this so pardon ignorance on posting etiquette.

I recently purchased some 1960's Zildjian cymbals off Reverb to go with my early 70's Slingerland COW set. I bought a set of 14" hi hats, a 16" crash and a 21" ride. They arrived and I was curious about the stamps to see if they were in fact from the 60's. The stamps all seem to check out, though I'm no expert, but the 21" ride is somewhat of an enigma. The add said it was from the late 50's, the stamp looks to me like a 60's short stamp but once again I'm no expert. I have a 20" ride from my other drum set and it has a 60's tall stamp and the 2 cymbals are totally different. So I started looking for answers on the internet and just got more confused. None of the examples that I found seem to match up with this cymbal. I'm hoping someone can help me with this puzzle. I have attached pictures.

Thanks
 

Attachments

cymbal.wiki

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2020
Messages
191
Reaction score
458
Location
Auckland New Zealand
What jp said. Obvious 60s stamp. BTW the 60s stamp was in regular factory use until about 1975. Both short and tall versions. Unfortunately we're stuck with a slightly misleading name. We're also stuck with beliefs that the 60s short was early 60s and the 60s tall was later 60s. I put this down to overenthusiastic interpretation based on inadequate samples and analysis back in the early 2000s when the original timeline research was done. Now that we have lots more evidence we know that the 60s short and 60s tall could have been in use in the factory on the same day.

But never mind the trademark stamp, what about the rest of the cymbal?

hammering: obvious later 60s style with smaller hammer face and quite regular in spacing around those concentric rings. The image of the bottom isn't quite clear enough for me to be sure but I suspect what you are seeing there is print through from the top hammering.

lathing: looks like later 60s / 70s lathing but again the photos aren't large enough and detailed enough to say more.

bell: looks like the Large Cup rather than the Special Cup. If so, that also points to early 1970s as that's the first time the Large Cup appears in the record. It appears on 21" Cymbals and is best known from the early 21" Rock Rides which came out in 1973. Several of these which still have model ink have the 60s short stamp which is one of about 7 lines on information which show the 60s stamps were still in use in the early 1970s. At the time there were two models: Rock 21 and Rock Ride 21". The Rock 21 had the Large Cup, the Rock Ride 21" had the Special Cup. It would be helpful to know the weight of yours. You can measure the bell diameter and see which cup was used.

rock21-1976-ad.jpg


Rock21-vs-Rock.png


Here are the more common A Zildjian cup sizes and names

zildjian-bells.png
 
Last edited:

Controls Guy

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2021
Messages
7
Reaction score
11
Thanks for the info!! Very helpful! I will measure the cup and let you know what I find. To your point the hammering is much more pronounced on the top than the bottom. This confused me when I was looking on the internet because all the examples showed heavier hammering on the bottom.

Interestingly, the hammering is much more pronounced on my 21" than it is on my 20". The 2 cymbals sound totally different, which I find really interesting. Hear are pictures of my 20". It has what I believe is referred to as a 60's tall stamp and the hammer marks are almost undetectable. This one I have owned since 1979, I bought it used with my first Slingerland drum set. I'm dating myself here...
 

Attachments

cymbal.wiki

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2020
Messages
191
Reaction score
458
Location
Auckland New Zealand
Yes that is the 60s tall stamp. That 20" might have the Special Cup. The Medium cup is what was used on 20" Medium Ride cymbals and Ping cymbals, the Special Cup was used on other models: Crashes, Crash Ride, 20" Rock Ride (still sifting through the evidence on that). Once the model ink has gone it is usually possible to narrow down which model a given cymbal is by the cup used, the weight, and the profile (how curved the bow is). I've been involved in a major project for the last few years to work it all out and document it.

Again a plea for for weights, and now for both the 21" and the 20" please. Because the Special Cup was used on both heavier (Rock) and lighter (Crash and Crash Ride) models it is the weight which informs us about what you have. If that 20" is lighter and the 21" is heavier that alone would explain why the hammering appears to be heavier on the 21". There are several factors which determine how much visible hammering there is on the finished lathed cymbal, but one part of that is that a heavier cymbal will generally end up with more pronounced hammering than a lighter one to get the same curvature of the bow. Note there are other models like the Ping which have more hammering to get a higher bow, but use the Medium Cup. All those factors are in the mix. My guess for your 20" is that it will be lighter than Medium weight class (1970g to 2200g) or at least at the lower end. But who knows. :dontknow:

I'm not sure where you are getting your information on hammering from. My work


needs a rewrite to incorporate new information and improve the explanations and examples. I apologize if that is part of your confusion. For example this

rectangle-hammer.jpg


I have now worked out is an example of print through from the top hammering. The mechanical hammering system Zildjian was using by the later 1970s was powerful enough to leave these marks on the other side.

As far as seeing lots of visible hammering on the bottom of an A Zildjian cymbal, that is usually a sign it is 1950s or earlier. The converse is not automatically true. Just because you don't see lots of visible hammering on the bottom doesn't exclude 1950s or earlier. It means you need to consider a checklist of other attributes.

We're still putting together the changes in hammering style over the decades in a more accessible way and relating them to the years when different machinery came into use. The later 1960s through to the 1980s was a time of many changes. The very early 1960s and the late 1950s were fairly similar. It turns out that changes don't happen on decade boundaries.
 

wraub

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2020
Messages
81
Reaction score
74
@cymbal.wiki
I always find your posts helpful, especially now that my fondness for older Zs has me with two and looking for more. ;)
 

Controls Guy

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2021
Messages
7
Reaction score
11
cymbal.wiki you are a wealth of knowledge. You assessment is spot on, the 20" quite a bit lighter than the 21".

To answer your questions;

The 21" weight is 2790 grams and the cup looks to me like the special cup 5 5/8" x 7/8". It's kinda hard to measure accurately. The hole is 1/2"

The 20" weight is 1990 grams and the cup also looks like the special cup. The hole is 1/2"

As far as where I was getting info from, I found a website black.net.nz that had a bunch of info. I looked through the pictures and tried to match the stamps and hammer patterns but could not find anything that closely matched what I had. The hammer patterns didn't seem to match the stamp dates, and the add on Reverb saying it was a late 50's cymbal was just wrong and added even more confusion on my part. I also read several threads on this site and decided to give it a try and see if somebody here could help. And you have been a big help.

I have no expertise, just very curious with a short attention span.
 

Controls Guy

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2021
Messages
7
Reaction score
11
That's cool... I didn't know that. You are correct there is a ton of good information there, but getting feedback directly cymbal.wiki really helped.
 

cymbal.wiki

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2020
Messages
191
Reaction score
458
Location
Auckland New Zealand
That's cool... I didn't know that. You are correct there is a ton of good information there, but getting feedback directly cymbal.wiki really helped.
Glad to have helped, especially as the clarity of my work was part of the problem. I've amended my signature to show both sites. Short story long I decided three years ago to resurrect the lost Paiste-Only Wiki. Because I liked the indexing and organization style of a wiki I decided to extend the new wiki to all manufacturers. Because...why not? It's only 10 times as much work. :icon_e_wink: I froze updates on black.net.nz until I had worked out the new way of organizing things and then I was going to do all the updates during the transition to the wiki. I still haven't come out the other end, but I also haven't stopped doing research and we've moved on a long way. So I'm playing catch up.

In my defense I got sick in mid 2018 with an autoimmune disease Polymyalgia Rheumatica and that reduced my work capacity to 10% of what it used to be. Not great timing while planning to transition sites. I have to take periodic health leave from DFO, the last bout from Jan 30th to Feb 20th. Now I'm back on 5mg Predisone daily and seem stable again, although I've spent the last two weeks getting over a cold. Yes just a cold. I had to be tested for other viruses currently circulating. I'm susceptible to any infections and even minor stress can set me back because of suppressed immune activity. But that's better than not being able to move because of the pain. :)

I was just following up some notes in one of many files, and it led me to this:


where you can see how many years I've been promising to get on with the complete rework to model based descriptions. *sigh* And since that was written in July 2019 I've got a year for how long the CO. stamp was in use. It was in use from 1982 to at least 1988 on present evidence. Little steps...but not always visible from what is on my site(s).
 
Last edited:

Controls Guy

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2021
Messages
7
Reaction score
11
No apologies necessary! There is a ton of great info there and you'll updated it when you get to it... Sorry to hear about you sickness. Thanks again for your help!
 


Top