Zildjian Heavy K lathing.

hector48

Very well Known Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2015
Messages
547
Reaction score
98
Location
PA
I have a medium K ride and the top lathing is there, but rather thin.
I just bought a heavy K ride, and the top lathing is rather wide and deep.
Is this typical of the heavy K ride?
This Heavy K is rather old (block lettering) and I wonder if the lathing is something that changed over time.
When I look at online pics of the block ink Heavy K vs the current Heavy K the lathing does look very different.
 
Last edited:

Seb77

Very well Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,494
Reaction score
209
Location
Germany
There are Early American Ks (EAKS), big K on the bottom, and Intermediate American Ks (IAKs). The latter have deeper, more A-like lathing. Solid Zildjian font on the bottom.
Is this what you have?
In the 2000s, Ks changed again to fine/smooth lathing reminiscent of EAKs.
 

hector48

Very well Known Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2015
Messages
547
Reaction score
98
Location
PA
Yes. I must have the Intermediate American K.
I wonder how this deeper lathing effects the sound vs the fine lathing?
 

felis

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
437
Reaction score
63
Which would produce more wash - fewer deep and wide lathe grooves,
or many more narrow and shallow grooves?
Everything else being equal.
 

Seb77

Very well Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,494
Reaction score
209
Location
Germany
Paul Francis, if i recall correctly, described the difference between As (wide lathing) and A Customs (Wide vs narrow lathing) as feeling bouncier/harder with As, more tension.
For me, it's hard isolate the effect of lathing alone; I feel deeper grooves create a deeper sound (duh); then there is hammering, profile, bell size , taper etc.
 

zenstat

Senior Cymbal Nerd
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
4,148
Reaction score
960
Location
Auckland New Zealand
This will take you through the lathing changes on North American Ks, although I still have more info to add:


There are distinct lathing phases for EAK, IAK, and later K (which itself has 2 or possibly 3 phases which recapitulate the EAK and IAK changes). It will also show you other ways to tell them apart by ink (if there is any left) and before/after the laser serial numbers (1994).

I generally call the two lathing styles fine tonal groove lathing versus large tonal groove lathing. But wide vs narrow will do until you are also describing other variations in lathing style (like skim lathing and pin lathing to name a few). The contrast is also found in Paiste 602 cymbals where I happen to have some good examples heading to the wiki. Paiste use specific lathing styles on specific models to achieve some specific sonic outcome.


sss-fine-lathing2.png



18-1920-large.jpeg


18-1419-large.jpg



A few photos of your cymbals are worth 1000 of my words.
 
Last edited:

zenstat

Senior Cymbal Nerd
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
4,148
Reaction score
960
Location
Auckland New Zealand
Which would produce more wash - fewer deep and wide lathe grooves,
or many more narrow and shallow grooves?
Everything else being equal.
Alas everything else is never quite equal in finished cymbals. The only people who have a shot at isolating the effect of just one factor like lathing style are cymbal makers who can do a short run of a few cymbals with identical specs except for one change like lathing style. Even then it is a statistical question because cymbals vary individually from one another. Another experimental design is to make a set of cymbals with identical specs and finish them with fine tonal groove lathing and thoroughly document the sound and feel. Then you add large tonal groove lathing to them. The down side is that you make them slightly thinner by lathing some metal away. You can't change just one thing. :dontknow:

If you want to know about controlling the amount of wash you might find that is more down to factors like thickness (weight) and the distribution of tension than the change you could create by lathing. And Seb has mention a few other parameters.

Here is what the late Johan van de Sijpe had to say about the sonic effect of the two lathing styles:

Q: what about the influence of lathing? While this would clearly take off metal and influence the weight of the cymbal, does the scoring depth etc effect the tone in any reliable way? Are there rules of thumb that are likely to apply here?

A: Deep sharp grooves add more sparkle and assertiveness to the tone (like Zildjian Avedis) while smooth fine grooves will produce a more gentle and controlled sound (like Zildjian A Custom). Then there's also the tapering (making the cymbal thinner towards the edge). A thinner edge will enhance the crasheability.

This is in the context of a larger discussion of other factors influencing sound which I include here because it indicates the interaction of many effects.

Q: Is it the case that very heavily hammered cymbals would be more complex or rich sounding, while cymbals that have very light hammering patterns are more likely to have a cleaner "ping" sound?

A: That's correct, it only depends on what you mean by "light" and "heavily". To simplify, very deep hammermarks will generally add trash (especially to a thinner cymbal), while less deep hammerstrokes will make the sound richer in a subtler way. But then there's the amount and location of the hammerstrokes and above all the strategy behind the hammering and we're off again. That's what most people forget about: the strategy. It is not because a cymbal is hammered by a hand held hammer that it will sound good. The quality and musicality depend on WHY you hammer in this or that way. I see this as a sort of communication with the bronze. You give a certain amount of hammerstrokes in a certain place and the cymbal gives you back a certain change of sound. Then you work further based on the feedback you got from the cymbal. Experience will learn you how the cymbal will react to a certain hammering strategy. But every cymbal, even every rough B20 alloy casting is different to start with and will react slightly different to a certain way of hammering.
 
Last edited:

felis

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
437
Reaction score
63
There is an answer to my question. It's OK for anyone to say they don't know, as it's quite possible that no one knows.
 

Seb77

Very well Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,494
Reaction score
209
Location
Germany
Another experimental design is to make a set of cymbals with identical specs and finish them with fine tonal groove lathing and thoroughly document the sound and feel. Then you add large tonal groove lathing to them. The down side is that you make them slightly thinner by lathing some metal away. You can't change just one thing. :dontknow:
I witnessed this in person when I visited the Impressions foundry in Istanbul and had a cymbal custom-lathed. The larger/deeper lathe grooves I asked for removed quite bit of metal so the cymbal got lighter, which lowered the pitch considerably. At first I thought we had gone too far, but I've come to like the low pitch since.
You'd need two very similar unlathed cymbals and lathe them down to the identical weight using different lathing tools/methods to hear the actual difference.
 

blueshadow

Just Shuffling along
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
13,092
Reaction score
939
Location
North of Austin, Texas
I have owned and gigged with both the newer K's and the older IAK's.... I prefer the IAK's they have a "give" under the stick that the new ones don't and crash better (the rides). I've never ventured into the EAK's because the soundfiles I've heard sound closer to the new K's than the IAK's so I don't think I'd like EAK's as much and IAK's are half the price so win win.
 

tripp2k

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
159
Reaction score
14
Location
DFW
In pictures and sounds:

Is that the same blank going through the cycles of production? Seems like a very thin/light ride at the end producing tones I hear in my head. Would love a 24" version of that cymbal :thumbup:
 

Latest posts



Top