Zildjians in Sonor price list 1977

[Tarkus]

Just recently I was looking up some Sonor prices and found this price list of 1977 (German):

Sonor price list 1977

I was surprised to find cymbals therein, but was even more surprised looking closer to the prices of Zildjians.

The Avedis Zildjians were around 10-12 % more expensive than K Zildjians (Made in Turkey). See pages 13 and 14, prices in DM (Deutsche Mark).

For example, the 16 inch Avedis Hi Hats are about 556 DM (which was a lot of money these days). The same as K Ziljians would have been 514,-. Then, a typical 22 Ride is 427 as K and 496 as Avedis. It seems clear, if you compare what was paid to Turkish workers compared to US workers, but it shows as well how crazy prices are paid nowadays.

Maybe you knew already, that Avedis was more expensive than K, but this was new to me.

 

[scheme]

Interesting stuff! I wondered about the prices and was surprised that the difference isn‘t as much as one could think. 427DM from 1977 would be equal to 616€ today. A 22 K Ride goes for 569€ on Thomann as example, so 50€ difference.

 

[Soulfinger]

Cool. Also, in the Zildjian cymbals description, they mention "Kenny Clarke" hi-hat pairs - 14" on top of 15" and 13" on top of 14". Never heard of these...

 

[Seb77]

Wow, that stuff was expensive.

 

[John DeChristopher]

You're talking about Sonor, a German company, importing a US product and selling it in Germany, whereas K Zildjian were made in Europe (or possibly Canada), so of course A Zildjian (made in the USA) will be more expensive than a European or Canadian made product in Germany. It makes perfect sense. Unless I missed something?

 

[Soulfinger]

I think it says "Kenny Clare", he was a British drummer who even played together with Kenny Clarke in the Clarke-Boland big band.

I´m aware of Clare (hey, that rhymes ) but it says "Clarke" - I just checked again.

 

[Frank Godiva]

Sonor was the EU Zildjian depot at some point in the 70s

From the 77 catalog

Much clearer pic here

1979

 

[1988fxlr]

I believe A Zildjians were very expensive to acquire anywhere in Europe back then. I know my dad had my uncle bring him Zildjians back to Ireland from New York to replace his Five Star Super Zyns in the mid-70’s because they were prohibitively expensive in Ireland and the UK at the time.

 

[Tarkus]

You're talking about Sonor, a German company, importing a US product and selling it in Germany, whereas K Zildjian were made in Europe (or possibly Canada), so of course A Zildjian (made in the USA) will be more expensive than a European or Canadian made product in Germany. It makes perfect sense. Unless I missed something?

Not really. They advertised A. Zildjian (USA) and K Zildjian (Turkey). Both products had to be imported to Germany, and in these days, Turkey was 'as far' away as the US, even though it was on the border of Europe (not fully European).

On the same 'Sonormuseum' page is an older price list of 1970 (I think). There, the prices for A and K are somehow equal. So, in the following years must have been an price increase for the Avedis (due to Dollar exchange, whatever), but not for K Zildjians, resulting in the 10% higher Avedis prices.

The fun part is, if I would exchange today my 20' Avedis Ride of the 60s/70s with an 20' New Stamp K, I should even get some money back (based on original prices of '77). But I don't find anybody doing this exchange, do you?

 

[Seb77]

The fun part is, if I would exchange today my 20' Avedis Ride of the 60s/70s with an 20' New Stamp K, I should even get some money back (based on original prices of '77). But I don't find anybody doing this exchange, do you?

There were a lot more A's made, I guess. Which didn't prevent German drummers from having to pay a premium. Mind-boggling almost, to think some schools bought Phonic kits with A's for their music room. Top of the line, alas , a 24-13-14-18 with a 22" Heavy ride didn't prove to be the most musical, versatile choice in the long run.

 

[AndyW.]

Sonor was the EU Zildjian depot at some point in the 70s

From the 77 catalog

Much clearer pic here

1979

View attachment 606046

I find this K Istanbul company logo ( and the use of it in 1979 !!) quite interesting, I've never seen it like this before. As far a I know Gretsch didn't use it that way

 

[zenstat]

On the same 'Sonormuseum' page is an older price list of 1970 (I think). There, the prices for A and K are somehow equal.

I spent too much time looking for this and came up empty handed. Can you provide a link please? That's why html was invented after all

 

[John DeChristopher]

Not really. They advertised A. Zildjian (USA) and K Zildjian (Turkey). Both products had to be imported to Germany, and in these days, Turkey was 'as far' away as the US, even though it was on the border of Europe (not fully European).

On the same 'Sonormuseum' page is an older price list of 1970 (I think). There, the prices for A and K are somehow equal. So, in the following years must have been an price increase for the Avedis (due to Dollar exchange, whatever), but not for K Zildjians, resulting in the 10% higher Avedis prices.

The fun part is, if I would exchange today my 20' Avedis Ride of the 60s/70s with an 20' New Stamp K, I should even get some money back (based on original prices of '77). But I don't find anybody doing this exchange, do you?

Haha. No, I don't think anyone would make that exchange today...

It's not as unusual as it seems... Even though both products had to be imported into Germany, Turkey is still considered part of Europe so the import duties would be significantly less or possibly non-existent, plus they could ship ground frieght as opposed to ocean or air. The distance from Turkey to Germany is about 1/3 the distance as the US to Germany.

And, I'm assuming K Zildjian in general was not any more expensive than A Zildjian in Europe, due to these factors. When Gretsch imported and distributed K Zildjian in the US they were marked up, as every distributor does. I've always attributed their higher price mainly to that, but I wasn't working in the industry in 1970s. Paiste (a Swiss company) is more expensive in the US and other parts of the world, than in Europe for the same reason.

This all to say that I don't doubt that A. Zildjian was more expensive than K Zildjian in Germany at that time, but prices are influenced by their country of origin and other factors.

 

[Ludwigboy]

From a Canadian perspective; I was looking at two retail Zildjian cymbal price cards from a Canadian Ludwig dealer that came with the 71-1 catalogue and the 73-1 catalogue .
No K Zildjian's are mentioned
For comparison, eg. prices for an 18"were $65 Cdn in the 71-1 catalogue and $70 Cdn in the 73-1 catalogue .

 

[Tarkus]

I spent too much time looking for this and came up empty handed. Can you provide a link please? That's why html was invented after all

I would have, if I had the html.

I had problems myself to find it again (because it was 1974, not 70), but still couldn't get a direct link ('path forbidden').

You can find it on the 'shelf' using this link: Sonormuseum Shelf

4th row from top, on the far right. It's the red book 'Preisliste 1974', page 8 (Avedis) and 10 (K). Maybe the prices of other, cheaper. companies are worth noting for cymbal wiki database as well (Zilco, Tyrko, Super-Tyrko, Zymbor).

 

[Frank Godiva]

I would have, if I had the html.

I had problems myself to find it again (because it was 1974, not 70), but still couldn't get a direct link ('path forbidden').

You can find it on the 'shelf' using this link: Sonormuseum Shelf

4th row from top, on the far right. It's the red book 'Preisliste 1974', page 8 (Avedis) and 10 (K). Maybe the prices of other, cheaper. companies are worth noting for cymbal wiki database as well (Zilco, Tyrko, Super-Tyrko, Zymbor).

The “new” Sonor museum has lots more historical stuff, much in German; that the old SM does not but it can be challenging to navigate for sure.

Thx for the link and explanation!

 

[type85]

Haha. No, I don't think anyone would make that exchange today...

It's not as unusual as it seems... Even though both products had to be imported into Germany, Turkey is still considered part of Europe so the import duties would be significantly less or possibly non-existent, plus they could ship ground freight as opposed to ocean or air. The distance from Turkey to Germany is about 1/3 the distance as the US to Germany.

And, I'm assuming K Zildjian in general was not any more expensive than A Zildjian in Europe, due to these factors. When Gretsch imported and distributed K Zildjian in the US they were marked up, as every distributor does. I've always attributed their higher price mainly to that, but I wasn't working in the industry in 1970s. Paiste (a Swiss company) are more expensive in the US and other parts of the world, than in Europe for the same reason.

This all to say that I don't doubt that A. Zildjian was more expensive than K Zildjian in Germany at that time, but prices are influenced by their country of origin and other factors.

Big JD, so the "K's" in the 1977 Sonor catalog were the "Turkish Zildjian cousins" versions. In 1978 Armand or Avedis bought the rights from Gretsch and production was moved to the Azco plant and those became the "Canadian K's"??

See, I know a little "big Z" history too!!

 

[zenstat]

Thanks @Tarkus. Great explanation of a strange interface. Yes, I'm collecting together prices for many brands of cymbals across a century or so. I'm not analyzing or graphing them yet, but it is on my task list. I'm thinking of estimating a factor called "collectible" pricing which shows when the price of a particular used cymbal exceeds the price of a similar new cymbal. But we soon get into definitions about what "similar cymbal" means. I did start by trying out this approach in the Paiste world on individual models/diameters

Paiste Formula 602 22" Dark Ride - Cymbal

www.cymbal.wiki

where we are less likely to get bogged down in endless claims that "nothing made today is a substitute for an Old K".

Big JD, so the "K's" in the 1977 Sonor catalog were the "Turkish Zildjian cousins" versions. In 1978 Armand or Avedis bought the rights from Gretsch and production was moved to the Azco plant and those became the "Canadian K's"??

See, I know a little "big Z" history too!!

The dates are a little uncertain for when the Turkish factory actually ceased production and when the last shipment went out. The 1977 Sonor catalog is late in the game as this is the year of closure in some histories. Robert Zildjian says he was running the Turkish factory at that time. It could be that Sonor was selling the last of their stock and by 1978 or 1979 they wouldn't be getting more shipments.

I find this K Istanbul company logo ( and the use of it in 1979 !!) quite interesting, I've never seen it like this before. As far a I know Gretsch didn't use it that way

The use of their own artwork for the trademarks in the catalog isn't unique. I've found that went on in many older catalogs and ads in a variety of countries. Such were the printed material production techniques of the day.

 

[zenstat]

I found this already in my saved info in my Old K research directory when I was adding something else.

http://www.sonormuseum.com/catalogs/1936-37/images/Sonor%20catalogus%201936-1937%20wm%2035.jpg

Jumping way back in time to 1936/37 we can see that they offer K Zildjian & Co, Stambul. The use of "Stambul" as part of the location is thought to be the "neighborhood name" for one part of Istanbul, before it was called Istanbul. Those who know Paiste history know Stambul as a series name of long standing. Cymbal manufacturers have been creating names which confuse the market for a long time.

I'm sure there is a lot more in the sonormuseum to be extracted and added to the corpus of cymbal information. I just haven't had the time to do a systematic review.

 

[type85]

I found this already in my saved info in my Old K research directory when I was adding something else.

http://www.sonormuseum.com/catalogs/1936-37/images/Sonor%20catalogus%201936-1937%20wm%2035.jpg

Jumping way back in time to 1936/37 we can see that they offer K Zildjian & Co, Stambul. The use of "Stambul" as part of the location is thought to be the "neighborhood name" for one part of Istanbul, before it was called Istanbul. Those who know Paiste history know Stambul as a series name of long standing. Cymbal manufacturers have been creating names which confuse the market for a long time.

I'm sure there is a lot more in the sonormuseum to be extracted and added to the corpus of cymbal information. I just haven't had the time to do a systematic review.

When I first saw that catalog, I thought I had found Paiste's "missing link" (link to prewar cymbals), unfortunately, that was not the case. Nobody I know of has seen, nor have I seen any documentation of prewar catalogs showing thier cymbals....