Opinions on Ludwig drum set values : extra holes vs repainted interiors

[LudwigGuy]

I have seen postings in the past re: 60's Ludwig drum sets/individual drums that have either...
1) extra holes
OR
2) repainted white interiors
How much does each of these "issues" affect drum values ? Does one affect values more than the other?
Thanks....

I think the only blanket statement that could be made is that these factors DO decrease the value of the drum. The question is by how much? My answer is, it just depends on the severity of the mods and the desirability you have towards the kit or drum. If you hit it and it speaks to you, buy the dang thing. If it doesn't, put it back.

I'd be much more concerned about edges and roundness of the drums as opposed to extra holes and paint. However, I'm no collector; I play what I buy.

 

[DavedrumsTX]

I have seen postings in the past re: 60's Ludwig drum sets/individual drums that have either...
1) extra holes
OR
2) repainted white interiors
How much does each of these "issues" affect drum values ? Does one affect values more than the other?
Thanks....

I have acquired and restored quite a few late 50s, 60s and early 70s Ludwig 3 ply drums. I currently have 6 bass drums, 3 snare drums and 20 toms in every available size for those time periods. With that said, I would not proclaim to be and expert, but I know a few things.

A few years back I would have told you that modifications, extra holes etc would impact the value. However, it’s getting harder to find clean vintage 3 ply Ludwig drums. I’ve seen people getting prices on modified 3 ply Ludwigs that would have been ridiculous a few years back.

For example, finding an early 70s 14x26 bass drum is very hard. I found one with holes from the cymbal holder and the rail consolette and a center Tom mount added. The inside was painted black. It was also missing the T Handle tension rods. I still paid $600 for the drum because it is scarce. I carefully removed the black paint, filled the extra holes and recovered in green sparkle. It sounds amazing. I suspect I could get between $800-$1000 for it.

 

[Tama CW]

In most cases value deduction for hole(s) ranges from 10-50% imo. Painting the interiors an improper color or over a factory natural finish.....deduct 10-30%.
On "average" I'd say around 20-30% for hole(s) and 10-20% for incorrect interior paint. One way to estimate is the amount of "quality" labor to make them right.

The "Swiss Cheese" look can exceed 50% if there are enough extra holes drilled into a bass drum.....or multiple attempts to get floor tom leg mounts "right."
Though the value of a tom or bass drum shouldn't fall much below the value of the useful hardware still attached to it (hoops, lugs, tension rods, badge).

The first time I ran into extra holes when buying was on a pair of 60's Slingerland bass drums that still had most of their original hardware still attached.....
though both had Pearl double tom mounts installed on them and 3 of the hoops were now generic wood. I sold those for about $60 each....lol.
Pretty stupid since just the legs, tension rods/claws, lugs were worth over $200 per drum.

 

[Tama CW]

My icon kit has 2 "extra holes." Specifically, the 9x13 tom had the 2 mounting holes lowered approx 1-1/2" to allow it to be clamped higher up on the bass drum.
And it brings that tom much closer to the both the player and the floor tom. The original owner did it....possibly in the 1950's. It was a useful mod for sure as this kit
is far easier to play than any other early Radio King kit I've run into. The 13 to 16 tom reach is only 11" (rim to rim).......compared to the 13" reach on my 12,14,20 Gretsch RB kit.
The reach improvement is at the expense of having a 3" rise from snare drum to mounted tom.

One of my gripes on these early kits with clamped toms is that they are always too far left or right of the player.
Fortunately, it was done to the least important drum in the kit and therefore no more than about a $100 deduction imo (20-30%).

 

[YabaMTV]

I have seen postings in the past re: 60's Ludwig drum sets/individual drums that have either...
1) extra holes
OR
2) repainted white interiors
How much does each of these "issues" affect drum values ? Does one affect values more than the other?
Thanks....

I am partial to the Ludwig 3-ply drums with clear lacquer interiors which they started selling in the late 60’s (I think it was 1968) through the early 70’s. Even though I have always bought this type I like the white interiors better than the granitone interiors. That said all of mine have the clear lacquer Maple interior. Extra holes or modifications are a no go. I had a kit rewrapped by Jack Lawton using reproduction aged tophat & cane wrap. I bought a bunch of drums and Jack hand picked which ones were appropriate for rewrapping. I still have the extra toms and bass drums. I played a “Jellybean” multicolor setup a few times with my Floyd Tribute in Los Angeles but I plan to sell these back into the Vintage market someday.

 

[DavedrumsTX]

I am partial to the Ludwig 3-ply drums with clear lacquer interiors which they started selling in the late 60’s (I think it was 1968) through the early 70’s. Even though I have always bought this type I like the white interiors better than the granitone interiors. That said all of mine have the clear lacquer Maple interior. Extra holes or modifications are a no go. I had a kit rewrapped by Jack Lawton using reproduction aged tophat & cane wrap. I bought a bunch of drums and Jack hand picked which ones were appropriate for rewrapping. I still have the extra toms and bass drums. I played a “Jellybean” multicolor setup a few times with my Floyd Tribute in Los Angeles but I plan to sell these back into the Vintage market someday.

Jack’s the man! He recovered my 1976 kit

 

[DavedrumsTX]

I have acquired and restored quite a few late 50s, 60s and early 70s Ludwig 3 ply drums. I currently have 6 bass drums, 3 snare drums and 20 toms in every available size for those time periods. With that said, I would not proclaim to be and expert, but I know a few things.

A few years back I would have told you that modifications, extra holes etc would impact the value. However, it’s getting harder to find clean vintage 3 ply Ludwig drums. I’ve seen people getting prices on modified 3 ply Ludwigs that would have been ridiculous a few years back.

For example, finding an early 70s 14x26 bass drum is very hard. I found one with holes from the cymbal holder and the rail consolette and a center Tom mount added. The inside was painted black. It was also missing the T Handle tension rods. I still paid $600 for the drum because it is scarce. I carefully removed the black paint, filled the extra holes and recovered in green sparkle. It sounds amazing. I suspect I could get between $800-$1000 for it.

Here’s a current listing on Reverb for a 9x13 3 ply Thermogloss. It would be worth the price if it didn’t have the holes and scar from the Rogers mount.

 

[Commodore]

I bought a pre-serial OBP "Ringo" downbeat kit for almost $5K. There were 3 extra holes in total, but the snare is an actual 5.5" x 14" jazzfest.

I figure I could spend as much as $20K on professional repairs and still double my money.

Some, apparently, would have passed on the deal...


Jim Irsay has almost $5M in an actual Ringo Kit

1963 Ludwig Downbeat | Ringo’s Beatle KitsRingo's Beatle Kits

Gary Astridge provides timeline and research information on Ringo Starr's Beatles-era 1963 Ludwig oyster black pearl Downbeat drum kit.

www.ringosbeatlekits.com

I'm fine with repairs on a 60 yo kit.

 

[kzac]

I have seen postings in the past re: 60's Ludwig drum sets/individual drums that have either...
1) extra holes
OR
2) repainted white interiors
How much does each of these "issues" affect drum values ? Does one affect values more than the other?
Thanks....

It all depends .....
By extra holes do you mean small holes between one pair of the upper lugs? If so, then that is historically where the head dampeners were mounted, which most folks remove ... so technically it would not be an extra hole. However if that is not the case and the drum shells have extra holes Ludwig did not drill ... then what is their purpose. Also consider you might be looking at later white badge drums that have been converted, as the tom mounts on the white badge drums were different that the earlier versions. So, if the holes are where tom mounts would have been, they you are most likely looking at either shells which are not Ludwig or later "Rocker" versions which were converted to appear as though they were Olive badge or the earlier 60s badge. I don't remember rockers having interior support rings, but they could have been added to give the proper appearance of vintage drums. If the holes are where tom mounts would normally have been, that would be red flag #1

Repainted interiors would be a more tricky issue:
If you can't see the interior date stamping Ludwig placed on their shells, how can you be assured they are even Ludwig shells? There have been many very good copies made over the years. this would be red flag #2 for me. and reason to walk away

The end result is, we have no concurs judgment of drums as that which exists with vehicles. The entire sale of vintage drums is subjective, and directly relative to what the buyer desires. And yes there are unscrupulous people who will attempt to pass off inferior products as superior products.

 

[kzac]

Here’s a current listing on Reverb for a 9x13 3 ply Thermogloss. It would be worth the price if it didn’t have the holes and scar from the Rogers mo

1971 Mach 5 - near mint.
The only mod was adding a second mounting hole in the bass for rack tom. It was done in the 70s with period hardware. I don’t think it detracts from value, but only the market can say.

That extra tom mount on your Bass drum might be stock Ludwig stuff. When Yamaha introduced the tri mount, it allowed 3 toms to be mounted on a single holder, I seem to recall other drum manufacturers doing something similar. Ludwig could have done the same by adding that mount, it also could have been special ordered as a cymbal stand, which was another common item of the time period. It was not uncommon to order your Ludwig kit with any number of accessories attached to the bass drum. I think I recall ordering my 73 kit with a side mount cymbal stand on the bass.... I had the pro beat kit but didn't get the 12 in mounted tom, only the 13 and my bass drum had the side mounted cymbal stand.

 

[K.O.]

It all depends .....
By extra holes do you mean small holes between one pair of the upper lugs? If so, then that is historically where the head dampeners were mounted, which most folks remove ... so technically it would not be an extra hole. However if that is not the case and the drum shells have extra holes Ludwig did not drill ... then what is their purpose. Also consider you might be looking at later white badge drums that have been converted, as the tom mounts on the white badge drums were different that the earlier versions. So, if the holes are where tom mounts would have been, they you are most likely looking at either shells which are not Ludwig or later "Rocker" versions which were converted to appear as though they were Olive badge or the earlier 60s badge. I don't remember rockers having interior support rings, but they could have been added to give the proper appearance of vintage drums. If the holes are where tom mounts would normally have been, that would be red flag #1

Repainted interiors would be a more tricky issue:
If you can't see the interior date stamping Ludwig placed on their shells, how can you be assured they are even Ludwig shells? There have been many very good copies made over the years. this would be red flag #2 for me. and reason to walk away

The end result is, we have no concurs judgment of drums as that which exists with vehicles. The entire sale of vintage drums is subjective, and directly relative to what the buyer desires. And yes there are unscrupulous people who will attempt to pass off inferior products as superior products.

Extra holes would be holes that were not drilled by the factory (or, possibly a dealer before the sale). The holes required for the original equipment that came on the drum and only for that brand's hardware available at that time. Holes that are there because a part (such as a muffler) was removed are not "extra" since you can fill them by putting the original part back on. Generally extra holes are the result of an owner installing something that didn't originally come on a drum or a part from another brand. For example a Pearl bracket on a Ludwig tom. It can get tricky as some dealers ordered drums without hardware and then installed whatever hardware the end customer wanted, which was often (especially in the case of Gretsch) from a different brand. That hardware is "original" to the drum but most people still consider those to be "extra" holes....or at least less desirable than if it had the proper hardware (even if the alien hardware is superior in function).

I'm not sure what drums you mean by "white badge". I assume you're referring to the black and white (instead of blue and olive) badges used on some of the Rocker series drums. The Ludwig classic mount has had the same hole pattern since 1962 and you can mount a brand new one in the same holes as one from the early 60s. There have been other mounts used on both Classics and Rockers of course. Some of the cheaper Ludwig lines have even used Pearl style mounts and, of course, the classic line had the Modular hardware as standard for a couple of decades (and it was optional on the Rockers).

Many many vintage Ludwig drums were never date stamped at the factory, and a shot of windex, or even water, can easily wipe away date stamps so the lack of such a stamp isn't a particularly good indicator of a drum's authenticity. They stopped putting date stamps in drums altogether around 1973.

Interestingly, I had a 14x20 bass drum from the early 70s that someone had painted the interior black. I repainted white over the black. The next day I noticed a dark spot in the white paint. The date stamp had come back through both the black and the several coats of white. You couldn't really read it but it was definitely the date stamp.

 

[Ludwigboy]

Thanks for all of your help and comments!

 

[dingaling]

The guy at precision drums told me it was super common for drummers to paint the inside of their Ludwig kits white or black in the 70’s. It was a thing lots of drummers apparently did.

I wasn’t around in the 70’s but I could imagine Matthew McConaughey from dazed and confused saying, “it’d be cooler if you painted those Ludwig’s, alright alright alright”

 

[bicho feo]

General question that has some relevance to the thread topic:

I have a vintage (1967 Keystone badge) Ludwig kit. The original hardware is horrible, as were the replacement parts (also vintage) I bought in an attempt to make the kit playable without drilling holes for new hardware. I used RIMS mounts for the toms. Problem solved. No holes. Floor Tom is perfect as-is. But the bass drum hardware is still problematic - the spurs (original & replacements) are completely useless & a stabilizer I added on (also vintage) doesn’t help. Does anyone know where I could get functional bass drum spurs that would not require drilling extra holes??

 

[K.O.]

The guy at precision drums told me it was super common for drummers to paint the inside of their Ludwig kits white or black in the 70’s. It was a thing lots of drummers apparently did.

I wasn’t around in the 70’s but I could imagine Matthew McConaughey from dazed and confused saying, “it’d be cooler if you painted those Ludwig’s, alright alright alright”

It was common to remove the bottom heads at the time for that concert tom type sound. I did it too...almost everyone did. Apparently lot of drummers (not me) didn't like the way the shell interiors looked and decided to paint them, usually black for some reason. It was a thing I guess.

 

[K.O.]

General question that has some relevance to the thread topic:

I have a vintage (1967 Keystone badge) Ludwig kit. The original hardware is horrible, as were the replacement parts (also vintage) I bought in an attempt to make the kit playable without drilling holes for new hardware. I used RIMS mounts for the toms. Problem solved. No holes. Floor Tom is perfect as-is. But the bass drum hardware is still problematic - the spurs (original & replacements) are completely useless & a stabilizer I added on (also vintage) doesn’t help. Does anyone know where I could get functional bass drum spurs that would not require drilling extra holes??

What spurs do you have? If they are the fold outs then you have a couple of no drill options in the INDe and Atlas mounts. The INDe being the superior option. The BR2 brackets replace the classic brackets and you use a better leg design.

If you have the disappearing type spurs then you can replace a couple of the lugs with Inde BR3 model and then use the same type of legs.

None of these options is probably going to work quite as well as the modern fold down Pearl style spurs that most makers install today but they should improve on the vintage ones without resorting to using a drill.

Ultralight Spurs & Spur Kits — Independent Drum Lab

This Bass Drum upgrade kit replaces the lousy spurs on your bass drum, using our Patented suspension mounts and gullwing style spurs. Better Stability! Much more sturdy than the spurs on many vintage drums Better For Transporting! Folds around bass drum to fit in cases Better Sound! Suspens

www.indedrum.com

 

[1988fxlr]

General question that has some relevance to the thread topic:

I have a vintage (1967 Keystone badge) Ludwig kit. The original hardware is horrible, as were the replacement parts (also vintage) I bought in an attempt to make the kit playable without drilling holes for new hardware. I used RIMS mounts for the toms. Problem solved. No holes. Floor Tom is perfect as-is. But the bass drum hardware is still problematic - the spurs (original & replacements) are completely useless & a stabilizer I added on (also vintage) doesn’t help. Does anyone know where I could get functional bass drum spurs that would not require drilling extra holes??

If the spurs are slipping in the brackets, Ludwig sells classic brackets with better eye bolts and bigger wingnuts now that fit the same holes and look about the same

 

[KCJazz]

I have acquired and restored quite a few late 50s, 60s and early 70s Ludwig 3 ply drums. I currently have 6 bass drums, 3 snare drums and 20 toms in every available size for those time periods. With that said, I would not proclaim to be and expert, but I know a few things.

A few years back I would have told you that modifications, extra holes etc would impact the value. However, it’s getting harder to find clean vintage 3 ply Ludwig drums. I’ve seen people getting prices on modified 3 ply Ludwigs that would have been ridiculous a few years back.

For example, finding an early 70s 14x26 bass drum is very hard. I found one with holes from the cymbal holder and the rail consolette and a center Tom mount added. The inside was painted black. It was also missing the T Handle tension rods. I still paid $600 for the drum because it is scarce. I carefully removed the black paint, filled the extra holes and recovered in green sparkle. It sounds amazing. I suspect I could get between $800-$1000 for it.

Thanks for that info. Not long ago, I paid a premium price for a pristine '63 Jazz Combo in my collectible color of champaign sparkle. I love the drum (with Bovid heads now), but it came with a bulky Radio King 2-felt muffler, which I removed. Sounds like it's not a big deal.

 

[Rich K.]

The guy at precision drums told me it was super common for drummers to paint the inside of their Ludwig kits white or black in the 70’s. It was a thing lots of drummers apparently did.

I wasn’t around in the 70’s but I could imagine Matthew McConaughey from dazed and confused saying, “it’d be cooler if you painted those Ludwig’s, alright alright alright”

I think Ludwig sometimes painted the insides white after they attach the lugs. Years later many of us assumed they were repainted when actually they may not have been.

 

[bicho feo]

What spurs do you have? If they are the fold outs then you have a couple of no drill options in the INDe and Atlas mounts. The INDe being the superior option. The BR2 brackets replace the classic brackets and you use a better leg design.

Thanks! This is great advice. I have the fold out type. The vintage parts simply do not support the weight of the drum… even without the mounted toms.