When first starting out. Full song or rudiments?

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I discovered this drummer yesterday. Look at what he does with The Three Camps.
This is beyond beginner stuff but it is interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/user/rickdior
 
I would say that what a beginner learns depends on what their overall intentions are with the instrument.
If they are young and are desiring to play for a living, then they should learn everything including rudiments.
If they are older and just want to enjoy playing with records or join in a local rock band, then not learning
rudiments is fine.
I think the biggest turn off for learning rudiments is how hard and long it takes to get satisfaction from
working on them. It takes years of study to make them work for you and when your young and your teacher forces
you to learn them you don't mind so much, but when older we tend to give up more easily for we can readily detect
how bad we are and a youngster does not.
(one side note: I got a kick out of this Sam Ulano drummer preaching the uselessness of rudiments, when he learned
rudiments growing up and played for the US Army band.)
 
I would say that what a beginner learns depends on what their overall intentions are with the instrument.
If they are young and are desiring to play for a living, then they should learn everything including rudiments.
If they are older and just want to enjoy playing with records or join in a local rock band, then not learning
rudiments is fine.
I think the biggest turn off for learning rudiments is how hard and long it takes to get satisfaction from
working on them. It takes years of study to make them work for you and when your young and your teacher forces
you to learn them you don't mind so much, but when older we tend to give up more easily for we can readily detect
how bad we are and a youngster does not.
(one side note: I got a kick out of this Sam Ulano drummer preaching the uselessness of rudiments, when he learned
rudiments growing up and played for the US Army band.)
A drummer who only played rudiments in marching bands can be totally out of their element behind a drum set. So a drummer with very little knowledge of rudiments may actually be better than a marching band drummer with no drum set experience. Just how many rudiments do Ringo and Charlie Watts play? Probably not too many, yet they seem to have done OK. There is no right or wrong if you want to try drumming as a hobby. If you want to go pro and be able to perform in shows or do studio work, reading and rudiments will be essential.
 
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I don't see how knowledge of the rudiments could hurt any drummer or their creativity. The only problem I can see is one of them trying to interject all of that into everything they do. I can guarantee you that Hal Blaine knew his rudiments inside and out and he was churning out number one hits for decades...all basically simple tunes.

To me, the more you have in your back pocket the better. The other half of this would be to know when to use it. I think the biggest thing that destroys a drummer's want for this type of learning is the boring approach of the teacher, and their are many teachers that are like that. I remember very well when a student of mine many years ago just had this chip on his shoulder (let's get on with it) and it was Rush this and Rush that..so I asked him to play an excerpt of a tune and he struggled with it. I said "Okay" now let me show you something and I broke down some basic flamacues, quadruplets and ruffs real slow. He still wasn't quite getting it so I hummed the tune and brought it up to speed as he developed a s**t eating grin on his face. He became one of my most prized students after that and worked his ass off. He knew the sound but he didn't know any of the words yet or how to organize it.

Do yourself a favor and learn them and everything else you can get your hands on. You'll thank me later.
 
I have a teacher. 37 Years experience as a drummer and 25 teaching. I'm making arrangements to have a single lesson with him soon so I can meet him, which as long as he doesn't show off, smell or stroke my inner thy I can't see why I won't come away with a 10 lesson block booking.

Joking aside he seems a real nice guy after doing some research. Without doubt he knows his stuff so its just whether we 'click' or not. I don't expect miracles but so long as there's no awkwardness everything should be fine.
 
I have a teacher. 37 Years experience as a drummer and 25 teaching. I'm making arrangements to have a single lesson with him soon so I can meet him, which as long as he doesn't show off, smell or stroke my inner thy I can't see why I won't come away with a 10 lesson block booking.

Joking aside he seems a real nice guy after doing some research. Without doubt he knows his stuff so its just whether we 'click' or not. I don't expect miracles but so long as there's no awkwardness everything should be fine.

Its important you like and respect the person, A good teacher may make you as mad as a hornet sometimes...but that means he's good usually. I've had a lot of teachers and I've both been brought to tears and swore like a sailor at times.
 
I would say that what a beginner learns depends on what their overall intentions are with the instrument.
If they are young and are desiring to play for a living, then they should learn everything including rudiments.
If they are older and just want to enjoy playing with records or join in a local rock band, then not learning
rudiments is fine......

I don't think many of us start playing drums with the intention of making a living at it, especially when we start very young. But regardless of why we start playing, more knowledge is never a hindrance.

As for the thought that being a rudimental drummer will make no difference on a drumset, I strongly disagree. My own experience playing in marching and concert bands only helped when I got behind a drumset. Learning new stickings is much easier when you're already used to playing multiple patterns as needed. Also, being able to hear a song and understand what was happening musically was very helpful in learning new material.
 
I would say that what a beginner learns depends on what their overall intentions are with the instrument.
If they are young and are desiring to play for a living, then they should learn everything including rudiments.
If they are older and just want to enjoy playing with records or join in a local rock band, then not learning
rudiments is fine......

I don't think many of us start playing drums with the intention of making a living at it, especially when we start very young. But regardless of why we start playing, more knowledge is never a hindrance.

As for the thought that being a rudimental drummer will make no difference on a drumset, I strongly disagree. My own experience playing in marching and concert bands only helped when I got behind a drumset. Learning new stickings is much easier when you're already used to playing multiple patterns as needed. Also, being able to hear a song and understand what was happening musically was very helpful in learning new material.

Me too Paul and I agree with what you've said here. I too was brought up in the corps and it has given me a lot of facility at the set. If nothing else, the ability to turn quick corners or even have a change of heart midstream without it upsetting the apple cart because your hands become less scrambled. If you need to double or triple up a left it becomes no issue so you can get yourself out of a jam quickly.

I'd put the Stone books right up there with importance, both Stick Control and Accents and Rebounds. These will truly disconnect the stubbornness of the mind to hand and are full of rudimental permutations.
 
I liked what someone said about finding other musicians to play with that are at the same level. Learn everything you can and practice a bunch.....but start playing with others early and often, it's fun and rewarding.
 
I would say that what a beginner learns depends on what their overall intentions are with the instrument.
If they are young and are desiring to play for a living, then they should learn everything including rudiments.
If they are older and just want to enjoy playing with records or join in a local rock band, then not learning
rudiments is fine.

Like Paul addressed, who knows what they are going to do with their drumming when they first start out?... I didn't.

As for the second part, I don't believe it is simply a question of whether one is just playing to records, or playing with a local band, but rather... how well one wants to do those things. For lots of folks, learning how to do something well is a great part of the enjoyment of doing it in the first place.



I think the biggest turn off for learning rudiments is how hard and long it takes to get satisfaction from
working on them. It takes years of study to make them work for you and when your young and your teacher forces
you to learn them you don't mind so much, but when older we tend to give up more easily for we can readily detect
how bad we are and a youngster does not.
Again, if learning basic rudiments is a drag or a big chore... then they aren't being taught right.

And if learning them takes years, again...they aren't being taught right.

I'm, of course, not referring to become a champion drum corp snare drummer, but rather getting a handle on the basic rudiments (like the original 26) that flesh basic techniques used by drummers of many different styles.

This shouldn't be a drag and it shouldn't take years - most of my background in basic rudiments happen within the first nine months of my starting lessons - as a stone cold beginner. During that same period, I also acquired my reading foundation as well.

Again, this stuff can be fun, exciting and engaging, but it has to be taught - not strictly as a rote exercise, but as something that makes musical sense, with a musical application presented from as close to day one as possible.

And fas it was brought up earlier by someone - this is why I'm not a huge fan of the Stick Control book. Yes, it serves it's stated purpose - but it does does so single-mindedly and in such a mind numbing manner. Again, yes it very useful for working out some neuromuscular kinks - but without a scrap of musical interest attached. A necessary evil for sure, but one I keep a wary eye on and never would want to focus on exclusively with a student.

Anyway - my two cents and all that....

David
 
This topic, like reading, is one of those subjects I think shows the higher up the hill you go, the further you can see. You will rarely find a person that has made the effort to learn these things argue against their importance. If you have not made the effort, how on earth can you have the slightest idea. Yes! there are some great drummers out there that just picked up sticks and started playing and you may be one, but they are the exception. And yes, there are learned drummers out there that cannot play their way out of a paper bag but that is due to the fact that not everyone has talent in that area. But then again, it all has to do with where you want to go. If all you want to do is play weekends with some local band, it does not matter.
 
This topic, like reading, is one of those subjects I think shows the higher up the hill you go, the further you can see. You will rarely find a person that has made the effort to learn these things argue against their importance. If you have not made the effort, how on earth can you have the slightest idea. Yes! there are some great drummers out there that just picked up sticks and started playing and you may be one, but they are the exception. And yes, there are learned drummers out there that cannot play their way out of a paper bag but that is due to the fact that not everyone has talent in that area. But then again, it all has to do with where you want to go. If all you want to do is play weekends with some local band, it does not matter.
 
Can we all agree that rudiments are like having a strong vocabulary to express yourself with on the drums.
Without a diverse vocabulary one tends to migrate to expressing themselves with profanity. Perhaps this is
way music is going downhill.....
 
If you had to chose one or the other, you should start out playing songs. The standard 26 rudiments played between the hands we all learn are of little use when learning to play the drumset.

A steady hand ostinato pattern in coordination with your feet will get you much further than playing rudiments.

I'll go so far as to say that you could play songs on the drumset with both hands played in unison with accents and never have to play an alternating pattern with your hands.

If you have to chose, chose songs.
 
If you had to chose one or the other, you should start out playing songs. The standard 26 rudiments played between the hands we all learn are of little use when learning to play the drumset.

A steady hand ostinato pattern in coordination with your feet will get you much further than playing rudiments.

I'll go so far as to say that you could play songs on the drumset with both hands played in unison with accents and never have to play an alternating pattern with your hands.

If you have to chose, chose songs.


Luckily, you usually don't have to choose.

But "A steady hand ostinato pattern in coordination with your feet will get you much further than playing rudiments."?

Get you "much further" to what? Being able to play a basic rock beat?

I just don't understand this theory, that the best way to teach someone to become a good feeling, meat and potatoes player is to task them with doing only the very thing they are trying to ultimately learn to do well. In other words, if you want to be a good, groove drummer - just sit down from day one and start trying to play with a good groove. No need to break it down - into any kind of technique or burdensome knowledge... just start going for it!

Learn a basic beat - and just keep playing it until, eventually....... eventually..... it should sound better.

Now I'm not saying to beginners, don't play songs, don't play the drum set... but they should be doing nothing else???

That's not how we train artists.... sure they need to draw... a lot.... but also they study color theory, design, art history....

How many pro baseball players get there by just playing... sandlot ball. Why do drills? It's not like they are any use in a game? So why even learn them? Why work on them? We should just practice winning games!!!

And yet, that seems to be the approach to learning (and I assume teaching) drumming many here are pitching.

To just immediately center in on specifically what you'll mainly be doing - playing time... and just learn that. Even though few if any things in the world actually work like that. Where you can become excellent, or even just competent at a skill by simply just learning and practicing it's most basic and commonly used task. Sure some factory work is that way (though less these days), but a professional skill? No. (And hobby or pastime or for whatever reason - learning to be a musician is the pursuit of a professional level skill set - regardless of what one chooses to do with that skill set).

I mean, I get that many are simply sharing how this all worked for them. And I get that collectively, we represent a lot of paths to a lot of different goals with our drumming.

But at the same time - there are actual respected approaches to teaching and learning the drum set, that are time proven for the results they can achieve and the efficiency with which they can achieve them.

And to those that would say - "Hey, I didn't do any of that, and my playing turned out just fine" - I would say both "Great, good for you" and "That's too bad". The first because I'm glad it worked out for you, and congrats on your stick-to-it-ness for making it happen - and the latter, because it probably could have gone easier, you could've improved quicker, and/or might have simply ended up a better player than you did.

But again, everyone has their own variations and blend of these paths - but to poo-poo all over the techniques that have been used for decades in crafting some (if not most) of our finest players, simply from not seeing their point, or from not having experienced their benefits first hand isn't IMO the best advice to any young or beginning lurkers present.

Thus I continue to harp....

David

 
Even if you never bother to learn anything close to drum corps level stuff, learning at least some basic rudiments first is a good way to wire the brain so that using all of the limbs comes a bit more natually when you finally get to it. I hear my non-drummer friends talk a lot about how difficult the coordination aspect seems to be, but it really isn't as difficult as it might seem with an incremental approach. Once you feel the rhythm in your hands (from playing some rudiment type stuff) then (and really only then) are you going to be able to divide up the parts of a rhythm and play them with different limbs. Of course one can just sit down at the kit from the get go and try playing all the limbs all at once, but that seems like the slow way to learn it. I really can't see a good reason for not starting out with the rudiments first. My rudimentary drumming skills aren't actually very advanced, but nonetheless, I feel that everything that I do on the kit in some way stems from that.
 
I liked what someone said about finding other musicians to play with that are at the same level. Learn everything you can and practice a bunch.....but start playing with others early and often, it's fun and rewarding.

I've always advanced much more quickly when I find people to play with who are better than I, or at least more experienced in that genre. I do agree that there's no substitute for playing with others as often as possible.
 
Another little thing. Most beginners start to play along with recordings the moment they get their drums, I know I did. They don't need a teacher to start that process.
 
Another little thing. Most beginners start to play along with recordings the moment they get their drums, I know I did. They don't need a teacher to start that process.
LOL! You're so right. And that's actually not a "little thing." It's one of the best on-topic points anyone has made so far IMHO. (And it only took 5 pages to get here.) Everyone does it anyway ... duh! Which is "better" as between the two approaches is moot.
 
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