12/8

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And different ideas about the importance of theory book correctness, and which theory book they used, and who their theory prof was.
 
toddbishop said:
And different ideas about the importance of theory book correctness, and which theory book they used, and who their theory prof was.
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It's easy to get hung up on all of this, but I think that, with a little bit of theory, music tends to sort itself out.

I learned music theory from this book. It was first published in 1969, and I had to study it in my teens in the 70s/80s. It wasn't "easy", and it wasn't fun, but it made my understanding of music a lot easier.

Sure, we can talk about time signatures and whatnot forever, but I think that a bit of decent theory can go a long way in helping pick-up a song you're playing off the top for the first time.

And that's the point of notation, no?
 
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toddbishop said:
And different ideas about the importance of theory book correctness, and which theory book they used, and who their theory prof was.
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And possibly when their prof was. I had an ancient, venerable prof who absolutely refused to acknowledge the validity of the concept of applied chords, e.g. the secondary dominant. She went to her grave insisting II7 was the only correct way to label V7/V. As far as texts, she adhered 110% to the McHose.
 
One difference between 4/4 and 12/8 is that 4/4 is simple meter and 12/8 is compound meter. Simple meter has a simple division of the best into 2, 4, 8 etc parts. Compound meter has a compound division of the beat into 3, 6, 12 parts. This is what causes the apparent discrepancy in notation. Really there isn’t a discrepancy at all it’s just a matter of understanding and notating the concepts of pulse and division.



Many of us were taught that a “time” signature has two parts. The top number tells us “how many” beats are in a measure and the bottom tells us “what kind” of note represents one beat. So in 4/4 there are 4 beats in a measure and a quarter note represents one beat. Through the table of note values we can then see that an eighth note is 1/2 a beat, sixteenth notes are 1/4 beat, a half note is 2 beats and a whole note is 4 beats. If we change the bottom number these values will shift to align with the new representation of the beat. For example in 2/2 (cut time) there are now 2 beats in a measure and the half note represents the beat. Therefore using the table of values a quarter note now represents 1/2 beat, an eighth note represents 1/4 of a beat, a whole note represents two beats. There are more intricacies and peculiarities within this scheme but they aren’t worth addressing yet.



This system of “time” signatures works for simple meter but not for compound meter nor odd meter. So it works for 4/4, 2/4, 2/2, 3/4 but it gets hazy with meters like 6/4, 6/8, 12/8, 5/8, 5/4, 7/8, 7/4. All of these meters have a top number that represents “how many” and a bottom number that represents “what kind”. But what they are representing has changed. The top number no longer represents how many beats but rather how many of the bottom number are in a measure. The bottom number represents the division of the beat. Confusing!! So in 12/8 there are “12” eighth notes in a measure but there aren’t 12 beats and the eighth note doesn’t represent the beat! Instead there are 4 beats in a measure and the eighth note represents the division of the beat. Remember above the definition of compound meter is that the beat is divided into 3 parts and further 6,12 etc.

There are a variety of ways to count simple or compound meter.
4/4 (simple quadruple)
1 2 3 4
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &
1e&a 2e&a 3e&a 4e&a

Or
Ta Ta Ta Ta
Ta di Ta di Ta di Ta di
Takadimi Takadimi Takadimi Takadimi

12/8 (compound quadruple)
1 2 3 4
1 an ah 2 an ah 3 an ah 4 an ah

Ta Ta Ta Ta
Takida Takida Takida Takida

In the end the difference is about how the division of the best feels. We still have the best (pulse) 1 2 3 4 but in between either a simple eighth nit division or a compound triplet division.
 
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beatdat said:
"As in, a 12/8 time signature has 12 beats per measure and the 8th [note] is the pulse".
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This is generally incorrect as the pulse in 12/8 is not the 8th note but rather the dotted quarter note.
 
get a hold of a copy of Patterns Book One by Gary Chaffee...that's why Vinnie is so adept at his metric changes.
 
Steech said:
Nevertheless, I feel obligated to support the existence of 3rd notes. Not “third notes” as you wrote, but rather, 3rd notes. See?
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I would submit that it is primarily the harmonic rhythm of the music that determines if the time signature of 12/8 or 6/8 is more appropriate, or whether the music is in actuality a triplet-feel in 4/4, such as a blues or jazz style. Of course, a straight up jazz song would never be notated in 12/8 in the first place. Blues is very often played in 12/8 but not written that way, and the the harmonic rhythm of four or eight beats per chord does not lend itself to 6/8. Just my view of it all...
 
ChuckAkeley said:
I would submit that it is primarily the harmonic rhythm of the music that determines if the time signature of 12/8 or 6/8 is more appropriate, or whether the music is in actuality a triplet-feel in 4/4, such as a blues or jazz style. Of course, a straight up jazz song would never be notated in 12/8 in the first place. Blues is very often played in 12/8 but not written that way, and the the harmonic rhythm of four or eight beats per chord does not lend itself to 6/8. Just my view of it all...
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The famous adagio sostenuto mvt of Moonlight Sonata is curiously notated as triplets in cut time, even though it has a slow compound quadruple sound/feel.
I think over time 12/8 became the notational standard for representation of compound quadruple in situations where clarity of notation and purpose are of concern.
If it's not notated, the distinction doesn't matter--it's just compound quadruple.
Jazz notation seems like a kind of a utilitarian offshoot of standard notation to me, as an outsider looking in.
 
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