Are You a Bad Drummer? Nashville Bass Player Exposes Tell Tale Signs

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bonzoleum said:
A bass player that rushes is BAD.
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Our bass player loves Rush, and that can be bad too :)

He rushes quite a bit, and our singer rushes his acoustic guitar but drags a bit singing, so it makes me sound like I'm dragging. In the studio the engineer thought I was dragging until he heard the drums locked with the click track. Bass and guitar were the culprits.
 
The cat understands a lot about playing drums, serving the song, and working together as a rhythm section.

In my experience I've been educated by people like him, but I suspect we've all had long nights where we couldn't find common ground in terms of the music with the bass player or others.

It's a shared responsibility but also a negotiation at times.
 
I totally get the bit about dynamics, but I need some help understanding what he means about wide, deep, and narrow. Is it a question of flexing the time in response to each other?

For example, let's say the drummer is 100% exactly on the click. That way the bassist can -as he said- play a bit ahead or a bit behind for flavor, and never be out of time. But that leaves the drummer no room for playing a bit ahead or a bit behind.

OTOH, if the bassist plays a ghost note that drags the beat a bit, that cues the drummer to either drag or push depending on the need of the song feel. And vice versa of course, with the bassist taking cues from the drummer.

Then there's playing where the landmarks of kick and snare are dead nuts on the click, and only the hats, cymbals, and toms vary off the beat. Maybe even just the hats!

In your view, do any of these particularly describe what the bassist dude was talking about with width and depth? Or is there something else to it? What do those terms mean to you?
 
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Sometimes it's better for me to hear what I should avoid than what I should strive for. And it's cool to hear from a seasoned player.
 
For me, drums is a hobby. I'm not a pro by any stretch of the imagination. If I had to perform in a studio with a professional band I've never worked with before, I probably would be "that guy" the bassist is referencing.
 
I get the feeling that people are agreeing with the article just on the sentiment that some drummers are great and others are not, like by innate talent, rather than by applied technique and practice. Am I wrong?
 
I'm not an expert, but I've always thought the drummer and bass player were a sort of rhythm section team. The paragraph on the pocket seems to suggest that if the bass player plays behind or ahead of the beat, and it makes the band sound bad, then it's because the drummer is bad. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around that, but then maybe I'm reading it wrong.
 
I played with this bass player who consistently played a 32nd note behind the beat. He was an old school cat and thought it was hip to lay that far back. To me it was extremely frustrating and literally gave me agita....

Surprisingly, after seeing some video of our performances, it didn't sound half as bad as I thought. I'm happy to not be working with him just the same for a whole bunch of other reasons.
 
I think his article being in a guitar magazine instead of a drum magazine is a safe approach, but I will say I am surprised by the responses of you drummers here that perhaps it could have been accepted by those who read drum magazines as well. It is doesn't appear to be the case of just speaking to the choir. I am obviously in the minority and what I say about myself is only going to stir people to attack me, but here I go anyway.

His thoughts on a wide beat means to me he wants everything perfectly on the click. HE wants to be able to put what HE wants where ever in the song. What about what WE want and how WE want the music to sound like? It sounds to me he basically wants a live drum machine. Maybe we should all tattoo "808" on ourselves.

It is great he is a professional. His catalog of working on 30 major label records sounds impressive. The names he list on the bottom though are sterile and quite boring. Richard Marx to me is everything that is wrong with rock music. I would never play with him. Well, for a million dollars I would, but we all know that is unrealistic.

I have a deep pocket and a loose feel and I give no apologies for it. Though they are two things he doesn't like, it is exactly what I wanted to create when I first started to truly get my technique together.

Sure I can play to a click but I am loose and not someone who can be cut & pasted almost anywhere on the grid. I have dynamics, but I generally play loud, too loud for many. I make no apologies for either as it is what I want and more than anything who I am. The fact that even with what he is stating as negatives, many engineers have commented how they appreciate the fact that though I hit hard, I consistently hit the same point on the meter and though I can not be cut & pasted anywhere, I give the music a human element to it.

Can I play with everyone? No way and it is probably why even with all my experience in studios and the compliments I do receive by engineers I am not called in. Of course I wish I was, what a nice career that could be, but I can accept it. Does this make me a bad drummer? According to this guy it does, but at least I can say I am being myself, not others want me to be.
 
struck a nerve , did he ?

Yeah, I suppose Levon Helm doesn't fit his category.

I never thought a wide beat meant on the click. I just thought it meant a wide beat. Some guys are dead on and sound thin, some guys are all over and sound fat. And vice versa. Heck, I'm just trying to play 4 bars without rushing,,,
 
jaymandude said:
struck a nerve , did he ?

Yeah, I suppose Levon Helm doesn't fit his category.

I never thought a wide beat meant on the click. I just thought it meant a wide beat. Some guys are dead on and sound thin, some guys are all over and sound fat. And vice versa. Heck, I'm just trying to play 4 bars without rushing,,,
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:)

bongomania said:
Can you explain what a "wide beat" is.
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I took it as someone who plays perfectly on click allowing the bass player a wide range to choose from whether he wants to play on, in front, or behind the beat.
 
A wide beat is like a down comforter on a february morning, and you pull it over you ( and maybe your girlfriend/boyfriend) and you get a certain sense of comfort and relaxation that this thing, this blanket, is going to keep you warm and cozy.

Seriously though. I do a regular blues jam. And peoples time can be all over the f****** place. And I was thinking a few months ago.. " I can get mad about this, or I can try to play and think in such a way, that my beat and groove is like a big net. And it has the ability to rein in guys who are rushing, and also give a lift to someone who might be dragging. All while seemingly staying in the same place.

I wish I could give recorded examples of someone with a narrow groove, but you never hear them. They don't make it onto the track, they get replaced by the producer..
 
Straight amateur drummer here...but I can count! From my experience, that makes me an exception among many other amateur guitarists and vocalists. Coming in correctly off a bridge seems to be a real challenge for some. And they seem completely oblivious. So, who adjusts? Sigh...drop to just eighth notes on the hi-hat and glance around to other band members trying to find the 1!
 
I'm no pro, but I'm no amateur either. To me, a wide beat/deep groove means EVERYONE is leaving space, and NOBODY is playing anything unnecessary. Yes bass and kick lock, but they don't NEED to be playing the same thing. Some people tend to play busy when they are lost or uncertain, or bash to force their beat. This can make the groove feel uncertain/narrow.
Playing in "Top 40" cover band(s), I've had the pleasure to mix with many different bassist. The current one I'm playing with sings and plays. His style changes depending on if he is singing or not, and it's a trick to change my style to make the band feel good. I suspect I will loose this gig(soon) to the drummer in the bassists former band. It's not that I'm bad or don't groove, I'm just not adjusting well to the bassist's swing. I'm now the minority.
 
wtc said:
Straight amateur drummer here...but I can count! From my experience, that makes me an exception among many other amateur guitarists and vocalists. Coming in correctly off a bridge seems to be a real challenge for some. And they seem completely oblivious. So, who adjusts? Sigh...drop to just eighth notes on the hi-hat and glance around to other band members trying to find the 1!
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And the audience will naturally think it is your fault when the band is off. :)

Ludwig100% said:
I'm no pro, but I'm no amateur either. To me, a wide beat/deep groove means EVERYONE is leaving space, and NOBODY is playing anything unnecessary. Yes bass and kick lock, but they don't NEED to be playing the same thing. Some people tend to play busy when they are lost or uncertain, or bash to force their beat. This can make the groove feel uncertain/narrow.
Playing in "Top 40" cover band(s), I've had the pleasure to mix with many different bassist. The current one I'm playing with sings and plays. His style changes depending on if he is singing or not, and it's a trick to change my style to make the band feel good. I suspect I will loose this gig(soon) to the drummer in the bassists former band. It's not that I'm bad or don't groove, I'm just not adjusting well to the bassist's swing. I'm now the minority.
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That is an interesting translation, but the fact he mentions wanting the choice of playing before, on, or behind the beat makes me believe otherwise. Ultimately, it does not matter. I only bring it up for discussions' sake.
 
The more I record, the more I cut the extra crap from my playing. You hear it on playback. It doesn't fit the song so why keep playing those parts? It's ego. Play for the song and if it needs a 3 tom fill, go for it but if it's distracting leave it out.
 
I tend to think that the idea of "wide" tends to mean "consistent". For point of discussion I would imagine that we are considering contemporary, back beat associated genres here. Some tunes require the drummer to play dead on the click. Some require a drummer to lay back behind just a touch or perhaps a lot. Some require a bit of swing to an otherwise straight feel. On occasion it may be desirable to be dead on a click for one section and push or pull on another. A good drummer will have a sense of what is appropriate (and there may be more than one right answer) and will do so with authority. That doesn't necessarily mean playing hard, though that might be necessary as well, but playing in a way that it is clear to you and to everyone in the room that YOU know what you are doing and that everyone can trust you.

What I think he means is the drummer is locked in and consistent and the other members of the band have the freedom to play with or around as they feel the need. For example, if the drummer is laying back behind the beat a bit, it just needs to be consistent on every note you are playing. If the drummer is instilling a bit of swing, that needs to be consistent. Think of it this way, the rest of the musicians should not feel surprised at all (in a bad way) by what you are doing. If they have heard and played to your first bar of backbeats on two and four, they should be able to rest easy knowing the next 16 bars are going feel the same and really, there is seldom a musical instance where that should not be the case. When that happens, there is a foundation that has been laid that sets everyone else up for success which then makes for a successful performance all around.

Our "job 1" as drummers is to lay down a consistent foundation. I've heard a lot of drummers where you were not entirely sure where two and four were going to land. That was a little early, that was a little late, that was spot on, that one was half the dynamic level, that one was an accidental rim shot. The really, really good players can be seriously consistent in note placement, volume level and timbre control. When you can do that, everyone else in the band has a much easier job. No one is trying to reign anyone in and no one is trying to drag someone forward. Sure we can talk about the fact that this is really everyone's job in the band, and that is absolutely true, but we are drummers so we have to take care of our part. It is up to the other players to do theirs.
 
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