Dear Zildjian: More basic K 22s, please.

[charlesm]

I think Joe was just doing his usual riffing on the "nothing from the USA is like a K Zildjian Istanbul" meme and then suggesting the the Kerope is closest. Perhaps not closest in sonic terms but closest in not having specific models? Since Joe mentioned 1977 I presume he's including Canadian Ks in his riff. The Kerope is marketed as a generic cymbal in the K family, so much so that they tried to just have just cymbals and not Ride vs Crash models. That harks back to the K Zildjian Istanbul approach which wasn't big on specific models. The model differentiation was an Avedis Zildjian innovation. Zildjian did add a heavier weight range (Medium) to their Kerope diameters in 2015, but that's about it. I was amused to see that Rides vs Crashes is so embedded in the thinking of the drumming community (and associated cymbal selling sites) that they chose to call the 18" & 19" Keropes Crashes, and the 20" and larger Keropes became Rides. Same with the A Avedis cymbals.

Play what you like. Like what you play.



I wasn't suggesting the EAK IAK distinctions don't have meaning. Just explaining why there are some changes which don't appear in the Zildjian model info. Anyone who knows my work should have figured out by now that I love distinctions. Particularly when we all use the same terminology and definitions.

I read his comments to mean that the original Turkish K design represents THE basic/fundamental K cymbal, since it's the K design that came first. And, since Keropes are based on that idea, they are the new "basic K."

And I'm just saying that, if we're going to call something a "basic K," I don't think that Kerope should be it because it's not as universally applicable as Zildjian's regular, standard K Series.

I realize we're getting into subjective territory. It's all perspective, I guess.

As for the EAK/IAK issue, that wasn't directed toward you. It was merely to address the feeling some seem to have that "EAK/IAK" is just some silly marketing terminology despite the fact that it is actually helpful terminology.

 

[charlesm]

Charles. Try Bosphorus.
(not Istanbul) Bosphorus. (and beat the kerrrrappp out of them

they don't have a Zildjian cup/bell but they wash up just fine-in Rock settings.

I been down deep all 90% of cymbal-bunny-holes.
Own 17 old Ks I've used in rock/blues/swing/ all settings. I'll never part with them-they've been and are my standard for 15 years.

But after 15 yrs. ...I got the urge for something new again.

for Rock/Blues club work Bos - work effortlessly.
(not Istanbul) Bosphorus. And beat the kerrrappp out of em.

Thanks, Joe.

I'm really not looking to go on a wide-ranging search for new cymbals and brands here. As you said, that often leads down the cymbal bunny hole. Although I like many cymbals by many different brands, I've decided to limit myself in general to Zildjian. It's part nostalgia, Zildjians being my first cymbals. But, more sensibly, I've been able to find just about anything I need with them, so I'm OK sticking with the brand. Focus is good.

In this case, I'm just looking for a very specific type of cymbal and sound, and I tried to make a case for offering that again in their lineup.

 

[JDA]

what do you think of this Charles..

2766g 22
built the old school way
(very old school )lol)
What's that sound like to you, or anyone else

 

[stevil]

Sounds like you all know more about cymbals than I do, but I humbly suggest the redesigned A Medium ride in a 24". It scratches the itch I had from some older standard 22" Ks. However, I only use mine in medium-to-very loud settings, so I can't speak to how it would do at a quiet gig.

 

[charlesm]

Sounds like you all know more about cymbals than I do, but I humbly suggest the redesigned A Medium ride in a 24". It scratches the itch I had from some older standard 22" Ks. However, I only use mine in medium-to-very loud settings, so I can't speak to how it would do at a quiet gig.

Good suggestion. The modern A design, even though it has been thinned out quite a bit in recent years, still sometimes strikes me as a little too much on the bright, glassy side. The cymbal sound I'm hearing for this 22 is much more dry and "pongy" in tone...a real low pitch but with a lot of body underneath it.

 

[stevil]

Good suggestion. The modern A design, even though it has been thinned out quite a bit in recent years, still sometimes strikes me as a little too much on the bright, glassy side. The cymbal sound I'm hearing for this 22 is much more dry and "pongy" in tone...a real low pitch but with a lot of body underneath it.

I recently picked up 22" K Heavy Ride from 1998, and when I A/B it with my contemporary 24 A Medium I think the A is darker and lower pitched. That said, while I haven't weighed the K yet, it strikes me as being much heavier than other 22 K heavies I've played. While my A is by no means a "dark" cymbal per se, it's darker than than some Ks I've heard. I guess I'm saying that darkness falls on a continuum, and it would be a mistake to assume that all Ks are categorically darker than all As, even if most Ks are darker than most As. But I wouldn't describe the 24 A Medium as dry either. Or, to be clear, when I think of dry I think of clear ping that that dominates the wash. The A will ping, but over a pretty substantial wash. And it definitely crashes well, which I don't expect from a dry ride. The K Heavy I have is much more dry. I'm not sure what you mean by "pongy," so I can't respond to that.

Good luck with your search though! Bottom line: I'm with you on wishing that Zildjian would bring back more 22 standard K rides. Have you tried calling them? In the past I've had good luck calling the folks at Sabian to ask for regular production model cymbals in non-standard sizes. Maybe Zildjian has a room of what you're looking for?

 

[charlesm]

Well, we're talking about weight here. Naturally, in general, a heavier cymbal IS going to have a higher fundamental pitch than a thinner cymbal, no matter A or K.

I feel there is a point, though, where thin cymbals can be SO thin as to lose a sense of body, and therefore lose the sense of depth.

We generally talk about cymbal pitch based on overtones. But, there is a point where UNDERtones become stronger and darker as cymbal weight increases. So, in certain cases, a thicker cymbal can give the impression of having a lower pitch than a VERY thin cymbal.

Case in point: I had a 22" K Light (2400g) and a 22" regular K Ride (2980g) here together for a short time. You would think the K Light would sound much lower. It had a lower attack pitch, yes, but it did not have the body/depth underneath it. It was more like a high-pitched breath. So, while the regular K was a bit more bright and pingy on top, it also had much lower undertones and more depth, and therefore, in person, actually sounded DEEPER than the K Light.

So, I believe a cymbal's overall pitch impression is a certain combination of both overtones and undertones relating to the cymbal's thickness, and it's NOT that thinner always equals lower. It's that the more you introduce MIDRANGE into the equation, the more you get deeper undertones and therefore a greater sense of depth.

Also, however, there comes a point where those undertones also become so high-pitched due to weight as to result in a cymbal that just sounds fundamentally high-pitched all around...i.e., Ping Rides, Earth Rides, etc.

But that's what I mean by the "pongy" ride sound: there's a lot of midrange depth in the sound, usually over a dry attack. It creates the impression of a very deep-sounding, dry tone.

I did contact Zildjian, btw, and the rep there told me that they might entertain releasing a 22" K Sweet at some point. Even though that's not exactly the sound I'm describing, it would still be a great model in the lineup.

Fairly "pongy":

 

[Pounder]

Charles. Try Bosphorus.
(not Istanbul) Bosphorus. (and beat the kerrrrappp out of them

they don't have a Zildjian cup/bell but they wash up just fine-in Rock settings.

I been down deep all 90% of cymbal-bunny-holes.
Own 17 old Ks I've used in rock/blues/swing/ all settings. I'll never part with them-they've been and are my standard for 15 years.

But after 15 yrs. ...I got the urge for something new again.

for Rock/Blues club work Bos - work effortlessly.
(not Istanbul) Bosphorus. And beat the kerrrappp out of em.

Agree with all this--"brand loyalty" aside. It's ironic a person would use the brand-loyalty card when talking about K's. The name was taken by Avedis in the 70s after the ONE AND ONLY TRUE ORIGINAL Zildjian (istanbul K) cymbal company went belly up. Most Bosphorus cymbals I've played have been really nice. Not true about some of the other cymbal companies based in Istanbul. But I digress.

 

[charlesm]

Agree with all this--"brand loyalty" aside. It's ironic a person would use the brand-loyalty card when talking about K's. The name was taken by Avedis in the 70s after the ONE AND ONLY TRUE ORIGINAL Zildjian (istanbul K) cymbal company went belly up. Most Bosphorus cymbals I've played have been really nice. Not true about some of the other cymbal companies based in Istanbul. But I digress.

K. Zildjians have been made by Avedis Zildjian Co. for 45 years now. K. Zildjian USA has a pretty loyal fan base.