How to groove in Cut-time?

[mw13068]

I'm playing in a band with a songwriter who will occasionally take a song that I had been playing in 4/4 time and turn it into cut- or double-time.

Any tips or inspiration and how to groove in cut-time? What are your favorite songs?

Doing a little research, I found this explanation.

 

[cworrick]

?
Are you sure about that 2/4 time signature?

It wouldn't be any different than 4/4 time as far as drum parts. Instead of bass on 1 and 3 with snare on 2 and 4, it's just bass on 1 and snare on 2.


Audibly you can't tell the difference between 2/4 and 4/4. Probably a good 90% of western popular music is in 4/4 time. Occasionally a 2/4 bar is thrown in to help change up or extend a phrase. Either way because the bass is still on 1 and the snare is on 2 in both it is usually not very noticeable.

 

[BennyK]

find something to call your own and keep your ears on what the other guys are doing

 

[multijd]

What do you mean by 2/4? Do you mean bass on 1&2 snare on (1)and (2)and? Traditionally that would be cut time or 2/2. If it’s just traditional 2/4 that would be as stated above by cworrick.

BennyK’s examples are great. Elvis and Butterfield are playing a two beat with the back beat on the “ands” and the band puts the back beat on the beat. For the two beat a train beat or a variation can work with sticks, brushes rods etc. or you can move to the hi hat or cymbal and play a straight off beat snare. Its the notes between the bass and snare that make it groove. Either cymbal or ghost notes.

 

[mw13068]

Here is an example of one of the song. Is this in 4/4, 2/4, or "two-beat"?

 

[JDA]

2/4 Songo
LRR, LRR, LR
LRR, LRR, LR
wait that's late in the evening.

So appropriate if it's a Latin thing.

2/4 is 8- 16th notes
so 5 and 3 break up
accenting 1 and 6th 16th

just deal-short phrase- with your 8 16th notes.

 

[foxy_shazamtastic]

Maybe you mean double time? That’s my best guess from the example.

 

[ZackPomerleau]

Yeah, sounds like it’s what I see on sheet music as cut or just double time. The time signature is the same but the bars are shorter because the ands become the downbeat.

1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and becomes

1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4.

 

[mw13068]

Its the notes between the bass and snare that make it groove. Either cymbal or ghost notes.

Ok. Thanks all for the clarification. And examples. I'll buy that it's 4/4 cut / double-time. The reason for my thread is that when I have a song with this feel, I feel kind of boxed in by it. Like a clock. Not very musical. So I'm looking for tips or clips of inspiring ideas that will fit in that context.

 

[mebeatee]

Try this......count out loud...
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 then count.....
1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 then count.....

1 2 3 4 1 2 1 2 1 2 3 4 1 2 1 2

There ya go....depending on the melody and groove/feel.
In the above counting example(s) two bars of four is way different than four bars of two yet you could superimpose the same melody over both.....which could be construed as half time or double time again depending on the melody.
bt

 

[cworrick]

Ok.
Cut time (2/2,double time,whatever the locals want to call it) THAT'S different than 2/4.

You have a few options.

The obvious and overly used standard go to country Two beat. Listen to a few different drummers play this. There are some little subtleties you can add to make it more interesting. You are not stuck to upbeats only.

The other, as mebeatee showed above, is to think of it in a doubled 4/4 time. This depends A LOT on the tempo of the song, and your abilities , but who says you can't use your 4/4 patterns at double the speed. Just be aware that your pattern isn't too busy and sounds like mud at the faster tempo.

 

[jptrickster]

Embrace it for what it is , there’s not much you can do with it. Lock in with the bass player and accompany the band
I channel my inner Billy Kreutzmen

 

[RIDDIM]

I always liked how BK went back and forth between cut and half time in this era of the Dead (I soon found out this approach was not appreciated in C&W circles at the time). Back then I thought this is how Mitch Mitchell would sound in a country band.

 

[jptrickster]

BK is a master of creating the anticipation over lesches syncopation. Perfect musical chemistry

 

[paul]

I thought that video was a terrible explanation of cut time, and don't know how 2/4 time got into this discussion. As for how it's played, that depends on the tempo and desired groove. If you're playing 2/2 time at 80 beats a minute it's functionally the same as playing 4/4 at 160. If, as was implied in the original post, the tempo is doubled from 4/4 then you'd either play 4/4 at 320 or 2/2 at 160.

I see this frequently in big band parts, and often can't figure out why the part is in 2/2. There's no notational advantage for the composer, and no real difference for the musician.

 

[mw13068]

I thought that video was a terrible explanation of cut time, and don't know how 2/4 time got into this discussion.

When I first created the discussion, i thought it was 2/4 I was talking about. I re-titled the discussion once it was clarified.

 

[RIDDIM]

I thought that video was a terrible explanation of cut time, and don't know how 2/4 time got into this discussion. As for how it's played, that depends on the tempo and desired groove. If you're playing 2/2 time at 80 beats a minute it's functionally the same as playing 4/4 at 160. If, as was implied in the original post, the tempo is doubled from 4/4 then you'd either play 4/4 at 320 or 2/2 at 160.

I see this frequently in big band parts, and often can't figure out why the part is in 2/2. There's no notational advantage for the composer, and no real difference for the musician.

- The video explains pretty well why a composer might want to write in 2/2. It's the musical equivalent of block printing in capital letters.

 

[paul]

- The video explains pretty well why a composer might want to write in 2/2. It's the musical equivalent of block printing in capital letters.

The composer writes the same thing, whether 4/4 or 2/2.

 

[paul]

As far as that goes, he could write the song in 1/1 time (yes, I know that doesn't really exist, but it could), or 8/8, or 16/16. Either way, the notation is the same.

 

[dcrigger]

Here is an example of one of the song. Is this in 4/4, 2/4, or "two-beat"?

OK so let's look at this...

1st off - 4/4 and 2/4 are time signatures - while "two-beat" is a designation of feel.

So "two-beat" would be a pretty common term to describe how this feels - not for any technical reason. Just because that is a term that the majority of musicians over the decades have come to use when describing music that feels like this.

Now the time signature, like all notation answers is a little more fluid. Since there is usually many different ways to write the exact same music. This is actually a positive feature of music notation, though for those getting used to notation it can seem otherwise at times.

But while we can write this music many different ways - there are common practices... So in that light, I would say the most common ways of notating this would be...

In 4/4 - with the quarter note equaling about 200 beats per minute.

Or it close companion - cut-time or 2/2 with the 1/4 note at 100 beats per minute.

Thinking in 4/4, if you listen to both the drums and the bass - you'll hear the bass and BD on 1 & 3 and a backbeat on 2 & 4 - this boom - pap - boom - pap or oom pa oom pa at tempos from below 60 ppm up to 300bpm or so is the underlying structure of the feel of nearly all popular music (except music in 3 or other odd meters). We can "stomp clap stomp clap" to everything from a jazz ballad to an Eagles tune to the Beer Barrel Polka.

This is why - even though it's fast - this traditionally written as fast 1/4's - because it's the same underlying structure we use for almost everything we play on the drum set - "stomp clap stomp clap" "boom pap boom pap"

Writing it in cut-time just additionally tells us it should be felt "In 2"

Now there is an additional school of thought that instead hears those backbeats as "&'s" not fast "2&4's".

So instead of 1 2 3 4 (@1/4=200) you have 1 & 2 & (@1/4=100). In some ways this could just be thought of a different way of writing cut-time. Or it can imply more about the purpose of that "2" between those "&'s". Is it just a secondary downbeat (like beat in 4/4) or does it hint at being a secondary (slower) backbeat - between the fast, upbeat "backbeats".

These subtle distinctions are what we use in creating feel - and frankly the written page isn't often going to spell that all out. Even in the most notated situations, the drummer still must use his/her ears and personal taste and vocabulary to decide how to shade the feel.

Finally - these two-beat patterns at face value can seem simple, square and somewhat dumb sounding... thus how do you make this groove is a legit question. For me, it boils down to conviction... putting the same amount of energy and commitment into playing that simple thing that I would something more typically groove oriented.

Hope that helps.