I Hate Virgin Bass Drums and the Resulting Need for Stand Mounted Toms

[spaeth]

I like how those of us that prefer undrilled bass drums are “gullible” and “buying into the hype”. No, I just like it better. I usually play big bass drums and I like my Tom’s off to the side so they can sit lower. I also like my ride cymbal lowish and centered over the bass drum. Tom mounts can interfere with both of these positions.

Visually I really prefer the look of a clean bass drum. Sonically I believe we put way too much concern into the exact science of making the perfect sounding drum when we have such imperfect ears. Especially us drummers. That said it is part of the fun. You can’t tell me that side loading a 10” steel rod sticking out of the drum isn’t going to effect how it vibrates. This isn’t even remotely part of my decision process though.

 

[Houndog]

This may have been mentioned already, but for those that don't want to drill or use cymbal stands as mounts, there is another option. The Gibraltar Stealth rack. I have one. I briefly stepped away from bass drum mounted toms and bought into the hype (as I see it), got a virgin kick and... Hated it. Not the sound necessarily, couldn't tell a real difference, but setting it up, getting the stands right, etc sucked for me. Anyway, bought a stealth rack and it had the added bonus of giving you a snare stand replacement as well.

I use a Stealth rack and I’m still using a clamp on the cymbal stand ???

 

[gezz]

There's nothing wrong with virgin bass drums, themselves, though I would argue that the sonic "advantages" over a bass drum with tom mounting hardware are negligible at best, and virtually imperceptible when using muffling, pre-dampened heads, and/or a ported reso. But I digress. This is not about sound or even looks; it's about practicality. The fact that virgin bass drums necessitate alternate means of mounting toms is what makes me hate them. Give me bass drum mounted toms ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. Especially on backline kits.

I just got back home from a 3 show run at The Granbury Opera House, near Dallas, TX. The house backline kit was a Gretsch Energy kit with a virgin bass drum, and the (for me) dreaded combination tom/cymbal stands. Now, I love me some backline kits, especially when they're already set up and all I have to do is position everything to my liking, and maybe adjust the pedal tension. In theory, since I can set up my own kit in 15 minutes, including removing them from the cases, I should be able to be up and running on a backline kit within about 5. This is never the case when the backline kit has a virgin bass drum and combination tom/cymbal stands.

I position my ride just above and to the right of the 2nd rack tom and slightly overlapping (see image), which is next to impossible to achieve when the tom and cymbal are on the same stand. When we arrived, I got the toms where I wanted them in less than a minute, but then the cymbal wrangling began. For literally 10 to 15 minutes, I tried everything to get the ride where I wanted it in relation to the 12" tom with which it shared a stand. It just wasn't happening. At first, it was way too close to me. Then, to get it far enough away, the tom mount would prevent the cymbal boom arm from rotating enough. In the end, the tech said he had another cymbal stand, and we ended up setting that up. What a waste of time and energy, and an unnecessary source of frustration.

Bass drum mounted tom "trees" worked for nearly 100 years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I hate then too!!!!

 

[604Pete]

Drummers are so gullible ... They seem to fall for almost any marketing blather that the drum companies push out ... Whether it's "virgin shells," "ancient Oak dragged out of Romanian rivers," "concrete snare drums" ... the list is endless.

Lots of drummers fall for it hook, line and sinker.

I would never give up my solid-body concrete snare. Nothing else gives me the right sound when I play the Flintstones Theme.

 

[Monday317]

There's nothing wrong with virgin bass drums, themselves, though I would argue that the sonic "advantages" over a bass drum with tom mounting hardware are negligible at best, and virtually imperceptible when using muffling, pre-dampened heads, and/or a ported reso. But I digress. This is not about sound or even looks; it's about practicality. The fact that virgin bass drums necessitate alternate means of mounting toms is what makes me hate them. Give me bass drum mounted toms ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. Especially on backline kits.

I just got back home from a 3 show run at The Granbury Opera House, near Dallas, TX. The house backline kit was a Gretsch Energy kit with a virgin bass drum, and the (for me) dreaded combination tom/cymbal stands. Now, I love me some backline kits, especially when they're already set up and all I have to do is position everything to my liking, and maybe adjust the pedal tension. In theory, since I can set up my own kit in 15 minutes, including removing them from the cases, I should be able to be up and running on a backline kit within about 5. This is never the case when the backline kit has a virgin bass drum and combination tom/cymbal stands.

I position my ride just above and to the right of the 2nd rack tom and slightly overlapping (see image), which is next to impossible to achieve when the tom and cymbal are on the same stand. When we arrived, I got the toms where I wanted them in less than a minute, but then the cymbal wrangling began. For literally 10 to 15 minutes, I tried everything to get the ride where I wanted it in relation to the 12" tom with which it shared a stand. It just wasn't happening. At first, it was way too close to me. Then, to get it far enough away, the tom mount would prevent the cymbal boom arm from rotating enough. In the end, the tech said he had another cymbal stand, and we ended up setting that up. What a waste of time and energy, and an unnecessary source of frustration.

Bass drum mounted tom "trees" worked for nearly 100 years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Bass drums are like women (to the cis-gendered, heterosexual male) in that you can be attracted to all sizes and shapes. I love my 28 x 14” wide-bottomed baby (just like the Mrs.), without a bunch of crap hanging off her; a virgin (nothing like the Mrs…) drum, even to the extent of spurs clamped to the rims. My toms hang of my heavy, double-braced crash stand—easy to adjust and get to.

Each to their own. People always comment on my oddball kit of 10/13/16 toms, 13” snare, 28” bass and cymbals on hangers instead of felts. There’s methods to my madness, right or wrong.

If the OP or any respondent prefers a different setup, I’m all in if it works for you, however you mount your toms.

 

[Parcel]

If you are putting a pillow in your bass drum you have already restricted the tone much more than a tom mount.

Agreed. I used this for my acoustic when I had one..

 

[bigbang3]

There's nothing wrong with virgin bass drums, themselves, though I would argue that the sonic "advantages" over a bass drum with tom mounting hardware are negligible at best, and virtually imperceptible when using muffling, pre-dampened heads, and/or a ported reso. But I digress. This is not about sound or even looks; it's about practicality. The fact that virgin bass drums necessitate alternate means of mounting toms is what makes me hate them. Give me bass drum mounted toms ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. Especially on backline kits.

I just got back home from a 3 show run at The Granbury Opera House, near Dallas, TX. The house backline kit was a Gretsch Energy kit with a virgin bass drum, and the (for me) dreaded combination tom/cymbal stands. Now, I love me some backline kits, especially when they're already set up and all I have to do is position everything to my liking, and maybe adjust the pedal tension. In theory, since I can set up my own kit in 15 minutes, including removing them from the cases, I should be able to be up and running on a backline kit within about 5. This is never the case when the backline kit has a virgin bass drum and combination tom/cymbal stands.

I position my ride just above and to the right of the 2nd rack tom and slightly overlapping (see image), which is next to impossible to achieve when the tom and cymbal are on the same stand. When we arrived, I got the toms where I wanted them in less than a minute, but then the cymbal wrangling began. For literally 10 to 15 minutes, I tried everything to get the ride where I wanted it in relation to the 12" tom with which it shared a stand. It just wasn't happening. At first, it was way too close to me. Then, to get it far enough away, the tom mount would prevent the cymbal boom arm from rotating enough. In the end, the tech said he had another cymbal stand, and we ended up setting that up. What a waste of time and energy, and an unnecessary source of frustration.

Bass drum mounted tom "trees" worked for nearly 100 years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Meh, I have a pre collectors series of DW that has the skid mount for toms, I have had a set of DWs that were virgin and I like both, the need for additional stands aside, I think if there is any sonic advantage to ANYTHING it is worth taking advantage of that. However I do note that Steve Gadd uses mounted toms !

 

[TommyTaylor]

Drill Baby Drill! My biggest fan, who I met when I sold him a drum head on Ebay in 2000....had recently configured a vintage Ludwig kit with no tom mount with a 14 x 20. Of course those drums are light and tend to flop around a bit with no weight on them...and he was complaining that his set up was always different each time he set it up. He had bought into the hype.

Drill Baby Drill I cried! Come on man...in the track or in an arena or a bar...you're never gonna hear the difference...once the guitar player and bass player are added in the mix you're just simply not going to perceive any notable difference. No engineer ever came to me and said..."you know Tommy....I just can't get your bass drum right with those tom toms on it." I get it...minutia..I played with Eric Johnson...I've been down all of his rabbit holes and created some of my own in the drum kit...some make a big difference...cumulatively, but mounting things on the kick drum...nah. We went and borrowed a hole saw from his buddy and put a stock double tom holder on the kick drum and he was relieved. People are using plastic strips instead of snare cord...and worried about drilling their bass drums...talk about something that kills the sound...

I agree...in today's world of "backline" the biggest nightmare is the tom on the snare stand..."Hi, we're too lazy and cheap to fix the tom holder but someone left this crappy DW snare stand here for the tom. Just use that."

But wait it doesn't go high enough for me, and I don't want my tom that far to the left of center if I'm relegated to one...
It puts the hi hat too far left and creates more distance than I want between rack and floor. That is followed only by the hanging cymbal stand version. The hanging toms...ugh...you spend aeons of time trying to get the toms right only to not be able to get cymbals where you want them....Of course it's all configured generally with the snake conveniently placed in the midst of all of the drum hardware and wires running all under everything. The "sound engineer" is working feverishly trying to put mics on the kit that you have removed so that you can move them where you need them before you are finished...I've never understood why they don't put the junction box right in front of the guitar amp...but...I digress......save me the complications...I'm old and grumpy...just let me play and get outta here. lol.

 

[Azoth]

There's nothing wrong with virgin bass drums, themselves, though I would argue that the sonic "advantages" over a bass drum with tom mounting hardware are negligible at best, and virtually imperceptible when using muffling, pre-dampened heads, and/or a ported reso. But I digress. This is not about sound or even looks; it's about practicality. The fact that virgin bass drums necessitate alternate means of mounting toms is what makes me hate them. Give me bass drum mounted toms ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. Especially on backline kits.

I just got back home from a 3 show run at The Granbury Opera House, near Dallas, TX. The house backline kit was a Gretsch Energy kit with a virgin bass drum, and the (for me) dreaded combination tom/cymbal stands. Now, I love me some backline kits, especially when they're already set up and all I have to do is position everything to my liking, and maybe adjust the pedal tension. In theory, since I can set up my own kit in 15 minutes, including removing them from the cases, I should be able to be up and running on a backline kit within about 5. This is never the case when the backline kit has a virgin bass drum and combination tom/cymbal stands.

I position my ride just above and to the right of the 2nd rack tom and slightly overlapping (see image), which is next to impossible to achieve when the tom and cymbal are on the same stand. When we arrived, I got the toms where I wanted them in less than a minute, but then the cymbal wrangling began. For literally 10 to 15 minutes, I tried everything to get the ride where I wanted it in relation to the 12" tom with which it shared a stand. It just wasn't happening. At first, it was way too close to me. Then, to get it far enough away, the tom mount would prevent the cymbal boom arm from rotating enough. In the end, the tech said he had another cymbal stand, and we ended up setting that up. What a waste of time and energy, and an unnecessary source of frustration.

Bass drum mounted tom "trees" worked for nearly 100 years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I have a virgin kick, but my cymbal stands are just that. They're not dual purpose. That would drive me crazy.

 

[LRod1707]

When I got my Classic Maples, Ludwig accidentally sent me a virgin bass even though my order was for a bass with mounts. Initially I was skeptical because of having to accommodate my toms with mounts on the cymbal stands. The sound difference was irrelevant to me since I don't think much difference exists between the two. Anyways, I tried mounts on the cymbal stands and didn't like it. I couldn't find the right positioning with that setup. Next came Inde's bass mount that attaches to the bass drum lugs. The mounting posts were too short so the toms sat to far away from me!
In the end, it was either return the bass drum or try a Gibraltar rack (which I never liked). Well, I tried the rack and have loved it ever since then.
I should've gone with a rack long ago!
I have expanded the rack to the point that my whole setup is on the rack with no need for any stands (including my hi-hat & snare). And my kit is 4 up & 2 down plus a host of cymbals!
One other nice thing about the virgin bass is the ability to easily move it around for cleaning, tuning, positioning and head changes.
This was my experience which I'm sure wont work for everyone but I now wouldn't have it any other way.
LRod

 

[erict43]

I'm ok with virgin BD for a one-up setup as I find the combo tom/cymbal stand to work well for me on the left side, but I do prefer a BD mount or rack for multiple rack toms. I drilled my DW Collector's to add the DW mount, to which I attach my 10 and 12 toms. The 8, when I use it, is on the tom/cymbal combo stand and I can easily get my main crash in a good position that way.

 

[exliontamer]

I've been playing with a rack tom in a snare basket for years and recently picked up a Yamaha Absolute kit with the big center mount and it's been a revelation. Stable and maneuverable. It's such a smart design on so many levels without being too bulky. Anyway, I want to put one on everything now.
It's hard for me to judge the not mounting on the bass drum thing though. I'm don't play jazz, I tune to the kick tension/not a note, I like 22/24 kicks, I bury the beater, I record without a front head a lot/like big center holes otherwise, I throw whatever soft thing is laying closest to me to muffle the kick, and by god I love center mounts with a pole in the drum. Basically I celebrate everything drumming magazines tell you to not to do to your bass drum.

 

[DBT]

No! Get an inde mount. They are great and no Swiss cheese holes in your bass drum.

When you consider how many holes are in the rest of the drums its a moot point . Way more options with then without .

 

[PDXMan]

Virgin bass drum (not even legs) and no heavy cymbal/tom stands (no "rack" either). The bass drum is cantilevered on a lightweight plywood stand that provides the foundation of the kit. Whitney Drums mounts cymbals and toms on two lightweight aluminum posts. This is my big-band rig and I have a fourth cymbal boom arm for another crash that I didn't set up for the rehearsal where this photo was taken. The only cymbals with legs on the floor are the hi-hats. More info about these drums and their other benefits at my site: https://kurtdeutscher.com/whitney-drums/ Yes, they sound like drums.

 

[Trilock_Gurtu]

Virgin bass drum (not even legs) and no heavy cymbal/tom stands (no "rack" either). The bass drum is cantilevered on a lightweight plywood stand that provides the foundation of the kit. Whitney Drums mounts cymbals and toms on two lightweight aluminum posts. This is my big-band rig and I have a fourth cymbal boom arm for another crash that I didn't set up for the rehearsal where this photo was taken. The only cymbals with legs on the floor are the hi-hats. More info about these drums and their other benefits at my site: https://kurtdeutscher.com/whitney-drums/ Yes, they sound like drums.


View attachment 572666

Interesting!

 

[exliontamer]

Drummers are so gullible ... They seem to fall for almost any marketing blather that the drum companies push out ... Whether it's "virgin shells," "ancient Oak dragged out of Romanian rivers," "concrete snare drums" ... the list is endless.

Lots of drummers fall for it hook, line and sinker.

Ha! Maybe not the fairest comparison but it's more fun to throw guitar dweebs under the bus. The amount of money thrown around on boutique pedals, pickups, amps, etc. particularly by people that barely play is bonkers. I would never say tone on an instrument isn't important but chasing it can be a slippery slope. Also, I'm sure we can all thing of a lot of examples where a "bad" tone sounds cool because the part and feel are great.

 

[drumsdrums67]

Drum companies over engineering drum hardware (i.e. lugs, mounts) over some several decades has been deafening! I was all giddy about it in my teens reading the 90’s-00’s Tama starclassic catalogs but since playing so many different drums from different eras and companies, how each kit sounds with mounts, rubber isolated lugs doesn’t make much a difference to me as long as it is built well, tunes up well, and sounds good. I personally like having a bass drum tom mount for the convenience even though I currently use a rack.

 

[itsjjp]

I prefer toms off the kick for the sound, and what you see here is all I play anymore so it's just one rack tom on a stand and I save 2 full cymbal stands with my kick mounted crash and splash above my ride. I don't set up the second snare most of the time. I just keep it off to the side in case I need a different sound or break my snare head. I also don't always bring the splash. I like finding treatments using less instruments to create the same overall sound as a much larger rig.

 

[Parcel]

I like how those of us that prefer undrilled bass drums are “gullible” and “buying into the hype”. No, I just like it better. I usually play big bass drums and I like my Tom’s off to the side so they can sit lower. I also like my ride cymbal lowish and centered over the bass drum. Tom mounts can interfere with both of these positions.

Visually I really prefer the look of a clean bass drum. Sonically I believe we put way too much concern into the exact science of making the perfect sounding drum when we have such imperfect ears. Especially us drummers. That said it is part of the fun. You can’t tell me that side loading a 10” steel rod sticking out of the drum isn’t going to effect how it vibrates. This isn’t even remotely part of my decision process though.

I had the kit rack mounted, so no longer needed to use the tom fittings. So it would have improved the sound.

 

[Patrick Howell]

I prefer a snare stand, and I especially like the DW Ultralight because it allows the tom to resonate.