Is this ride cymbal in "good" condition? - RELISTED & SOLD.

[Tama CW]

A 22 inch EAK RIDE (7 lbs) that was recently sent to me for a strong price. The only description was good "used." Seller's 4 photos only showed perpendicular views of the top and bottom....no side views.
I figured that big heavy 1980's rides are usually in ok condition. Pretty hard to distort or damage them. Perfect Feedback seller didn't mention any flaws. So I ordered it knowing that EBay would have
my back if anything was really wrong.

Cymbal arrives with two opposite sides (180 deg total) pretty warped. Wavy edges around nearly the entire circumference. Seller told me it was a great cymbal and accurately described as "used"....no returns allowed.
In fact they told me I got a great deal for my nearly $500 paid. Seller also notes that it surely didn't leave their possession that way....so either I did that damage on the day it arrived or UPS did it. They also suggested
that I might be fudging my photos or placing "things" under the cymbal to make it look worse. They also said my table was probably warped making things look worse than they are. So I had to break out a carpenter's level, calipers, etc to prove to them via photos and dimensions that my kitchen table is at most 8 thousandths of an inch from dead flat. Their cymbal sits 115 thousandths off the table. I measured another very nice EAK ride I have and it sat 15 thousandths off the table.

The warp across the cymbal appears to be about the height of the bell. The homemade shipping box didn't show any signs of poking through the sides or tread marks. It was packed marginally though in only a 3"-4" wide box. I've yet to send or receive a vintage cymbal that ended up with shipping damage. Cymbal to me sounds clunkier, darker, and more clangy then normal because of that warping.

So is this "good used" condition?

 

[toddbishop]

$500 seems like a lot for any used American K.

Maybe that's "good" by coin collector's standards-- where good means "pretty crappy"-- but not for an instrument. That didn't happen in transit, and the description should have mentioned it. Description said no returns based on the honesty/accuracy of the description; it wasn't honest/accurate, so they should take a return.

 

[Tama CW]

$500 seems like a lot for any used American K.

Maybe that's "good" by coin collector's standards-- where good means "pretty crappy"-- but not for an instrument. That didn't happen in transit, and the description should have mentioned it. Description said no returns based on the honesty/accuracy of the description; it wasn't honest/accurate, so they should take a return.

Even in coins that would not qualify for a grade of "GOOD." For that you need a straight planchet that sits flat.....and not damaged. But, a fair analogy.

Really nice 22 EAK Rides do currently fetch in the $450-$650 range. However, this particular one is far from "nice." Even the 20" EAK Jazz Rides routinely bring $400-$500....and more.

 

[RIDDIM]

You've been had. Talk to EBay.

 

[Tama CW]

You've been had. Talk to EBay.

I have talked to EBay after filing a return claim. They found in my favor. Unfortunately, the seller wouldn't provide a return label ($42 UPS if I were to ship it back).
The seller did send a refund, but it was out of the normal Ebay sequence. And because they dragged their feet on not promptly getting a shipping label, EBay actually closed the case and
interpreted the seller's actions as not wanting the item back either. You don't give out a refund until you have the item back in your possession.....that is unless you don't want it back...or the cost
of shipping would exceed the value of the item.

So now the seller cannot get a label through them (assuming they even tried) and EBay has told me via phone call just to keep it. Their case is closed So I keep telling the seller to provide a label and they don't.
Their story changes day to day.

So now I'm being called every name in the book by the seller because I won't ship it back at my expense, which is against EBay rules for items "not as described." So
each of the past couple days I had a stack of nasty EBay messages in my in-box calling me every nasty name in the book....and that they're going to sue....and I can't get away with this, etc, etc. etc.
"Return my cymbal or else!"

Sadly, I'm pretty sure what will happen once they get this back. They will then claim it was never in that condition and that all the damage was caused by me.
And once again start sending me nasty messages and threatening to sue me or looking for compensation. They told me that these EAK's are all hand hammered and hand casted so anything I'm seeing is
normal and a result of the mfg process......and all part of the "good used" definition.

 

[Drumaniac]

Tell the seller "thanks for the compliments" your cymbal is here and once you send a return label it will be on its way back to you.

 

[Tdipaul]

if this sounded great you wouldn't be complaining

 

[Tama CW]

if this sounded great you wouldn't be complaining

If it sounded "great" I still wouldn't want it.

The value of any cymbal is still highly dependent on its condition. And it's not like this is a super rare K Con 22 from the 1930's or even a
K Istanbul 22 from the 1950's where one might accept a lot wrong with them IF they sounded great. But this is a fairly available, mass-produced 1980's K Zildjian where condition drives the
majority of the price.

Seller threatened a C/C claw back today. So I contacted both EBay and my CC company again to put this all on the record....beat them to it. They both assured me that claw backs can't occur when EBay was the
one sending the refund through. EBay told me not to worry as they have my back. Both CC Co. and EBay both told me to keep the cymbal if I wanted. Still, that's really right no matter how annoying and abusive the seller is. The seller has upped their nasty grams to such a level I discussed that with EBay as well and they will look into it and consider banning them if appropriate.

After the dust settled a bit and I provided the seller with a marked copy of buyer's return rights and who pays return shipping.....a shipping label popped up. And it looked like this could be THE resolution. Though I still have no doubt the seller will start another round of claims once the cymbal is back to them....where they will scream to the heavens that it was never like that when they had it last. They will want blood if only to keep this "aggrieved one" scenario alive in their head.. So, to kill any notion of a pending resolution.....the "aggrieved" sent me a series of texts on my cell phone with the "F" word and other possible slurs I don't even understand. My wife received that phone message and brought it to me. Not cool. I copied the messages and included them in a return EBay message so the Ebay staff can read it. This is getting scary........like Robert De Niro scary. About to the point where I need to consider getting the police involved. And for the icing on the cake they are also threatening to go to my local police for "theft" and civil court to file a "defamation" claim. I guess I should beat them to the punch and see the police first....and show them the cymbal and messages. Boy, buying on Ebay sure is fun. Yeah, I have a return label in hand.....but them getting the cymbal back will only start the next chapter in this saga.

It's sort of ironic. Back in 2006 I got scammed on EBay out of $2200 on an item. The seller copied another listing and posted an item they never owned. EBay wouldn't do a thing back then. And I went to the State AG, police in both jurisdictions, USPostal Inspector, FineCen, BBB, State Consumer Protection, etc. In the end, NO ONE could do a thing or would do a thing. The jurisdictions were 1,000 miles apart....like in this case. And the crime-stoppers don't have time for small time white collar crime....they all told me as much. I think their general feeling was that if you can afford to buy a $2200 hobby item on EBay....then you can handle the loss too. Don't bother us.

 

[Tdipaul]

The Seller sounds like a total nut job. Time to expose who it is for the benefit of the group.

 

[Tama CW]

I made one last attempt to show how the camera can reveal or hide the same flaws with this progression. Somehow I don't think it will sink on on the seller.
First 3 photos are of his....and the only view that shows the worst warp right under the K logo. Other views almost completely hide it...even mine. Are those glamour shots the only
ones that should be used in a for sale listing? I'm no angel when I feel I'm being taken advantage or called a liar or schemer. I try to stay away from the name calling or threats. Usually facts and
evidence tend to be enough. It hasn't worked here though. With the sellers lousy photos these are the only comparisons I can make to find the 'smoking gun' on his photo's. The cymbal
is still "valuable," though not nearly as much as I paid for it.

One good thing from all this. The seller "blamed" me for EBay now suggesting or requiring his cymbal listings to have a full description, including flaws. No more "used" condition. And between the two of them
came with up changing the previous "no returns" policy to a "30 day returns." I will note they have a 1970's 22" Zildjian just posted that says everything is perfect and "no flaws."
Geez. I'm somewhat tempted to order that cymbal and see if there are "no flaws." Only 1-2% of all my vintage cymbals I would call essentially flawless. It's a high standard for old cymbals. Stating that a vintage
item is flawless is usually a poor idea. I've got NOS items from the 30's and later....none are flawless. Brand new drum sticks or heads are rarely flawless. New cymbals made in the current year are pretty close.....

 

[KillinBill66]

Damn. Somebody must have literally beat the water out of this cymbal

 

[dnel77]

Sell it!

 

[Tama CW]

Sell it!

And then find out I'm on the wrong end of court/police action and need to give back the so-called $500 cymbal? Don't want to go there.
Or what if EBay just changes their mind, for whatever reason? Never say never. Rules are meant to be broken....eventually.

 

[jmetatual]

What a bad experience. You received a full refund, eBay decided in your favor, closed the case and you have a return label? Send it back to the seller and be done.

 

[RickyColaiuta]

I’m sorry to hear you had such an ordeal but that cymbal looks totally fine to me. Warped? Yes, there’s no disputing that but it’s a heavy EAK - this means it was actually hammered by a human being (at least partially) and could have easily come from the factory like that. Again, not trying to slam you or offend but the cymbal is totally playable.

 

[Drum & Bass]

I’m sorry to hear you had such an ordeal but that cymbal looks totally fine to me. Warped? Yes, there’s no disputing that but it’s a heavy EAK - this means it was actually hammered by a human being (at least partially) and could have easily come from the factory like that. Again, not trying to slam you or offend but the cymbal is totally playable.

Really? Easily come from the factory? I’m asking honestly.. because you don’t need calipers or a carpenters level for that! it’s bonk! Never even seen a cymbal do that.. gotta either put out some wonky tones, or inhibits and cancels tones out? A 6 year old child could take one look at it and tell you it’s off. Seller Is scamming IMO.

 

[Tama CW]

What a bad experience. You received a full refund, eBay decided in your favor, closed the case and you have a return label? Send it back to the seller and be done.

Yes the case was closed. But, it took a couple days to prove to the seller they were wrong and needed to supply the return label.....which only came late in the afternoon today,
about 3 hours BEFORE your post. Approx 150-200 messages from this seller, many of them threatening, many duplicates. I can't even drop the package off to UPS until Monday when they
re-open in my area.... and told the seller that. It sits all weekend no matter where it goes. In the meantime they have all but promised police or court action
IF that cymbal doesn't arrive back exactly as they shipped it....in other words exactly like they "think" they remembered it (ie it had no observable flaws to them).....and unlike any of the "bad" photos I took.

In any event it's going out by Monday but I expect further abuse from this seller. in the coming days and weeks.

 

[Whitten]

Gotta agree with a couple of previous posts.
I've never put a used cymbal on a flat surface. I buy it, I play it and decide if it's a good one or not.
I have a few Istanbul K's, I have a few EAKs and I've bought Istanbul Agop used.
The one time I had an issue with an Ebay seller I ended up phoning Ebay customer services. The issue was cleared up very quickly, with my 20 year, 100% positive feedback finding in my favour.

 

[Tama CW]

I’m sorry to hear you had such an ordeal but that cymbal looks totally fine to me. Warped? Yes, there’s no disputing that but it’s a heavy EAK - this means it was actually hammered by a human being (at least partially) and could have easily come from the factory like that. Again, not trying to slam you or offend but the cymbal is totally playable.

I own numerous "hand hammered" trans stamp Zildjian A's from the 50's. Also some K Istanbuls. And some other EAK rides. None of them have warping or edge waviness to the level of this one. My oldest EAK is a pre-production model from the first few months in 1982. It has a bit of warping but only a fraction of this one....yet also smooth edges without dents or ripples. Regardless, the vast majority of EAK's and hand-hammered Zildjians left the factory in a pretty flat condition with straight/smooth edges. Not perfect. But really good. And any deviation from that is really on the seller to provide descriptive detail or extra photos. The cymbal is certainly playable for someone. I've had cymbals with chunks missing and up to 5" groove cracks that were "playable".....it doesn't mean they're worth the same money as a cymbal without excessive warping, dents, cracks, etc. Playable doesn't cancel out condition. And it certainly isn't the norm that Zildjians from the 1980's come warped and dented, even early EAK's that might have experienced "some" hand hammering.

Had the seller been fully descriptive of this cymbal, it would have been a reasonable value at reduced price. But, I never would have gone near it....not even at $300. I do find it interesting though that some hold the view that playable trumps condition. I can understand that opinion. But, since when has "playable" been the major real determinant of a cymbal's market value? Why do I have to eat the difference in market value because the seller thinks his playable cymbal is every bit as good as all the ones that sit mostly flat? And we don't have to put this cymbal on a table to realize it's twisted....it looks that way on a stand too.

But the issue here is "value" and not just "playability." To me it's worth 30-50% less than one without significant problems. I even told the seller early on if they felt so strongly about how good and playable their cymbal was, then take it back and find that buyer who thinks its worth near the $500 level. If they're right, one will show up. They eventually agreed and gave the refund..........but absolutely refused to supply a label feeling it was my duty to do that....... until just a few hours ago. They didn't need to send me 175 or so messages in the process.

 

[DWSlingerland45]

Ad is deceptive in my opinion it is exactly " Not as described" . Cannot say if it was done on purpose by the seller for sure. However the seller is obviously off their rails. If I were in your shoes I would take lots of pictures during the repackaging process and send it back. Then empty your PayPal account or whatever you have linked to eBay for a while. You've done nothing wrong here, and that cymbal should have been marked as edges warped and Fair condition and priced approx half of what you paid. I've bought and sold dozens of EAKs over the years you're spot on about the value. Good Luck.