Is this ride cymbal in "good" condition? - RELISTED & SOLD.

[Tama CW]

It was only a matter of time. Now back up for sale on EBay at $500ish on EBay with no returns. I guess my wood table wasn't so "warped" after all.
In just the time I was working up posting this the listing price changed from $650/obo, to $599, to $500, to $498.95. Strange.

"The condition is very used. But sounds great. No resellers please. Only players and absolutely no returns. Zero cracks."

Ironically, they went to some trouble to identify what areas were not flat....and still missed about 6"-8" further to the left of the lower K than where they marked.
As well as the opposite side of the cymbal between 2 other flat areas. The sound video is atrocious. And their weight at 6.5 lbs is off by 200 gms from the
6.94 lb (3150 gm) that I got on an accurate digital scale. 7 lbs is an accurate weight....not 6.5 lbs. They've actually allowed some "room" for another return to occur.

Seller's photos:

 

[Bijan]

Jesus what a turd! I love how, as you mentioned, the seller has now gone to great lengths to show the isuues with the cymbal. Probabaly a great thing that you haven't heard from them. Yeesh

 

[Tama CW]

Jesus what a turd! I love how, as you mentioned, the seller has now gone to great lengths to show the isuues with the cymbal. Probabaly a great thing that you haven't heard from them. Yeesh

Funny you should say that they went to great lengths. Well, not at first. I just noticed in checking their completed listings TODAY that they first listed this today several hours earlier at $800....and ended it a few hours later.
And with the same poor photos they took the first time.....no edge views. But they did include some verbage:

Zildjian 22" Ride. EAK, used. It isn't perfectly flat and has never been since I've had it for over 20 years. The hole is not perfect. But it isn't keyhole. Just use a protective guard and you will keep it from keyholing and that is what I have done. Buyer, there are no returns. It is what it is and please no resellers.

With that description of being "not perfectly flat".....they'd have probably got it returned again as "not as described." And right there they effectively stated that they knew all along the cymbal wasn't very flat for the 20 yrs they have had it. In this short-lived listing they had the weight at 8 lbs. and stated it "sounds like a gong." They didn't do that for the subsequent listings.

 

[itsjjp]

No, that's not good condition. It's unlikely that it happened in transit if the packaging looks OK. However, I recently bought a 20" Paiste 505 Medium that was like new at the MGR that had it listed. It arrived badly warped and the seller agreed it happened in transit. We think the box was stacked upright, was the highest item on the top layer of the pallet, and that another pallet was stacked on top of it. The box showed some signs of being crushed, but it wasn't obvious. So, just throwing that out there. Other possible cause was that box was flat but overhanging beyond the edge of the pallet and then got crushed with another pallet or against a wall or truck side. Stuff happens. I was really looking forward to getting that one too.

 

[JazzDoc]

Well, sorry to pipe in with this news after all the online abuse, but knowing what I know about the process and era that cymbal was from… high probability the warp and ripples were always there. The ripples were always there as they appear that land with hammer marks that went past the outside edge. Warps, even in a heavy cymbal aren’t uncommon (more so, since the cymbal is stiffer). EAKs were manually powered hammered, “bumped” into a low shape and finished into final shape by a manually-operated power hammer. Wasn’t a very exacting process. That cymbals a 35-40 year old, used cymbal… have to take these imperfects as-is.

I agree with this regarding EAKs. I have owned quite a few over the years and many do tend to show “warpage”, perhaps not to this degree, but this finding doesn’t surprise me at all.
One of my all-time favorite cymbals is an 18” EAK Crash Ride that took a fall while on a stand and has a permanent “wave” where the cymbal’s edge hit the floor. I will never part with that pie. It is so responsive, full and rich with just a mild glance with the stick and I wish I had more cymbals like it, warpage or not.
Chris Whitten left some very good advice earlier on regarding the warpage and your purchase.

All that said, you had every right to refuse to accept this cymbal as the abnormality was not described by the Seller nor was it pictured accurately. His responses to your complaint were sociopathic.
Someone else suggested you simply resell it. That is absolutely the wrong way to go about a happy ending for all. If the defect is not described nor pictured then someone’s likely to be disappointed just as you were.
Leave him neutral Feedback and move on. Let him fester over it. It’s longer your problem.
Kind regards to you.

 

[jlzisk]

"Not as described"; "Damaged"; "Incomplete Description"; "Fatal Discrepancy"-- I have been buying and selling on eBay for 22 years, with 100% strong Positive Feedback, and these are the terms I would use in a dispute that I would lodge with eBay Customer Support for your purchase.

 

[McLovin’ me Ludwigs]

I had a similar Ebay issue few years back, but with a 1970 olds cutlass convertible. Wife playing/bidding on ebay. Next AM. congrats you won auction. Fast forward….We got the seller! via internet crimes division (florida highway patrol) because they had sold car with an open title. Got our $ and car went back on ebay next day. BUYER BE WARE!

 

[JBludwig]

Mama always said “ don’t mess with crazy”
He probably would pay you a visit to collect on a measly $500. A low-life cyber bully.

I’ve bought a lot of used gear in person and online. I like to feel out the seller with a few emails and/or phone calls before I pull the trigger. That way you can decline if you get bad vibes.

 

[kevmill70]

I have talked to EBay after filing a return claim. They found in my favor. Unfortunately, the seller wouldn't provide a return label ($42 UPS if I were to ship it back).
The seller did send a refund, but it was out of the normal Ebay sequence. And because they dragged their feet on not promptly getting a shipping label, EBay actually closed the case and
interpreted the seller's actions as not wanting the item back either. You don't give out a refund until you have the item back in your possession.....that is unless you don't want it back...or the cost
of shipping would exceed the value of the item.

So now the seller cannot get a label through them (assuming they even tried) and EBay has told me via phone call just to keep it. Their case is closed So I keep telling the seller to provide a label and they don't.
Their story changes day to day.

So now I'm being called every name in the book by the seller because I won't ship it back at my expense, which is against EBay rules for items "not as described." So
each of the past couple days I had a stack of nasty EBay messages in my in-box calling me every nasty name in the book....and that they're going to sue....and I can't get away with this, etc, etc. etc.
"Return my cymbal or else!"

Sadly, I'm pretty sure what will happen once they get this back. They will then claim it was never in that condition and that all the damage was caused by me.
And once again start sending me nasty messages and threatening to sue me or looking for compensation. They told me that these EAK's are all hand hammered and hand casted so anything I'm seeing is
normal and a result of the mfg process......and all part of the "good used" definition.

don't send it back. And report the harassments to Ebay and let them take care of it. The seller will have their account revoked

 

[Md2020drums]

Well, OK. It's very apparent OP hasn't ever been in any sort of confrontation before. Must be nice, haha!
I'm sorry this happened to you, OP.
I'm not one to screw anyone over, but had even a FRACTION of this harassment you described happened to me, I would have told the seller he had my address
To reiterate, I would have originally returned it, but the second any sort of harassment starts, game on.
Ebay gave you the green light to keep it, full stop.
This seller needs to be taught a lesson.

 

[hawker]

Sorry to hear what you're going through and how weird and aggressive the seller is. There aren't any bunny rabbits involved are there?

 

[Old Drummer]

The original problem is a tough one. "Good" condition is pretty subjective to begin with, and it's conceivable that the seller either didn't notice the warp or didn't think it was a big deal. It's also possible, if unlikely, that the cymbal was damaged in transit.

On the flip side, you are a knowledgeable buyer and $500 is too much to pay for a cymbal in the condition you received it in.

Up to this point, I'm good with chalking the problem up to miscommunication, though if I were the seller, I would have willingly given you a refund for the returned cymbal and then relist it adding "slightly warped" to the description just to avoid a similar problem with another buyer.

In fact, I experienced something like this as an eBay seller when selling a cello (for a lot more than $500). I thought I had described the cello accurately, but the first buyer said I hadn't and wanted to return it for a refund. Well, OK, that was a hassle and expense, but I didn't want an unhappy buyer, and even kind of felt sorry for her disappointment. Go figure, the cello sold again to another buyer, who as far as I know was happy with it.

Unfortunately, the "miscommunication" in your case only intensified, and the whole transaction turned ugly. That's too bad.

 

[Tama CW]

To those who are late to this thread or didn't read it all........everything has been RESOLVED on the original transaction. The seller got their cymbal back 2 weeks ago on their dime with their shipping label.
It was unfortunate it took them a couple days to figure out that was what they needed to do. I'm sort of surprised EBay didn't at least temporarily ban them for the verbal abuse and threatening physical abuse.

The cymbal wasn't warped or damaged in shipping. The package showed no signs of being crushed or tossed around. There were some signs in the seller's original photos that there was at least some warping in the same areas. And in their latest listing for $800 (since ended) they just admitted the cymbal has been warped "some" for the entire 20 yrs they have owned it.

=============

This is now the RELISTING of the same cymbal by this same seller. So I'm not part of this transaction.....just reporting on the facts of the new listing(s). But, feel free to make an offer to them if you like what you see.
I will probably leave neutral FB for this seller along with a lengthy description of how they operate......using every bit of "comment" space allotted to me.

I've been part of numerous "confrontations" on EBay and Reverb before. Out of my 800 or so total transactions as both buyer and seller....probably several dozen of them. A few of them got fairly heated.....but nothing like
with this guy. Keep a cooler head than your adversary and stick to facts and logic.....you'll always win. I learned early that if you join and match the abuse level....you might lose your case and end up with nothing.....like this seller almost did.

 

[chakosticks]

As soon as he started blaming you and UPS for the condition it was obvious he's a less-than-honorable individual.

Reminds me of the time a contractor was working on my sister's garage where I kept my bike. There were a few times I noticed they left the garage door and side door open with no one around. One day I went in the garage and realized - my bike was gone, stolen. The contractor blamed me for not locking the bike to something in the locked garage where it went un-stolen for 20 years before he had access to the garage.

 

[Drumskillz]

"$500 seems like a lot for any used American K."

Completely agreed. Not to mention one in this condition. My educated guess would be that this cymbal took one or more hard falls on a hard surface. Or had some rather heavy stuff stacked on top of it for an extended period of time. Perhaps in long term storage? The long and the short of it is that you got taken. I would contact eBay about it.

[CORRECTION: I just read your follow up posts. CONGRATS on the favorable resolution!]

And going forward follow my simple rule. Never EVER buy used cymbals over the internet. If you can't eyeball and test the cymbal you're buying, it's not worth any perceived savings.

 

[Tama CW]

"$500 seems like a lot for any used American K."

Completely agreed. Not to mention one in this condition. My educated guess would be that this cymbal took one or more hard falls on a hard surface. Or had some rather heavy stuff stacked on top of it for an extended period of time. Perhaps in long term storage? The long and the short of it is that you got taken. I would contact eBay about it.

[CORRECTION: I just read your follow up posts. CONGRATS on the favorable resolution!]

And going forward follow my simple rule. Never EVER buy used cymbals over the internet. If you can't eyeball and test the cymbal you're buying, it's not worth any perceived savings.

The best and scarcest EAK's routinely bring over $500....and they don't necessarily have to be 22's either. They have a wide pricing range depending on condition, weight, model, and tone.
I've never owned a 22" EAK so still keeping my eyes open for one....ideally an early production model.

I would agree that cymbal stand falls are one of the major causes of cymbal warps. And you often see other signs of that with a kinked up bell hole + round cut under the bell hole + bell hole cracks.
Even smaller and lighter cymbals can get quite boinked.

 

[Derrick]

Without a doubt, that clown was all bark no bite... they would NEVER have sued because it would cost them way too much to do and they had no grounds to press any charges. eBay has policies and you followed them and they called the final shots.

I once received an item that somebody packed in a garbage disposal box with newspapers and the instruction sheet form the disposal that clearly had drain crud from a recent replacement. I was pissed and grossed out to say the least! I left feedback saying what happened and called him a pig. He proceeded to send me a string of messages telling me I had no right and I should have given him the change to make it right. How do you make that right? He was a f'ing pig. Moral of the story, some sellers have a whacked sense for what's normal or OK.

Another seller sent me the wrong drum part. It was actually a somewhat valuable vintage Ludwig snare part instead of a modern cheapie. I tried many times to reach out but only crickets in return. Very odd. I got eBay involved and they credited me for the purchase price and shipping, and had me send it back with their label. I got the item back saying "Return to sender - Address unknown" Since the money was already in my account, the seller wouldn't respond back, and as far as eBay was concerned the item had been sent back and closed the case, I had a free Ludwig part. I kept it in the packaging for a few months, then put it in my parts box and moved on.

My theory is... I play by the rules, but if you screw up, after a while it's on you ya know?

 

[Formula 602]

Is that the same "box" the seller shipped the cymbal to you in? I'd be super nervous if a $500 cymbal (or any cymbal) arrived in that thing.

Yup..me too!

 

[Tama CW]

Yup..me too!

And I made sure to ship it back in EXACTLY the same box provided.....but with about 30 ft of extra tape to keep it secure. Considering how banged up the cymbal was....that was overkill.

Seller revised the price on the latest listing 3X in the past 24 hrs. The listing ended yesterday at a buy it now price of $300. SOLD.....SOLD.....SOLD.....for $300 + shipping.
That's a big fall in price in just a couple days from $800 to $650 to $500 to $300. It appears they were anxious to get rid of it. Maybe someone here thought it might be worth a shot at $300?

It apparently sold for the $300 + shipping. I ended up giving this guy a "neutral" feedback with a lousy writeup and low "star" ratings where applicable. Someone else had a problem this past month
with another "not as described" listing and gave them a negative FB. So at least they are at 96% now which red flags their account. They really should be at about 85-90% based on other comments left from buyers.

====================

Updated 8/29/23.

I just noticed this seller left me a nasty rebuttal to my FB that is all lies and mis-truths. I'm the "bad" guy here....not him....LOL. For one, he said I had the cymbal for 2 weeks. In fact the EBay record shows I had it for 3-1/2 days before it was mailed back. And 2 of those days were wasted because seller wouldn't provide me a return shipping label. They also claimed I tried to keep the cymbal and the refund....which never happened. I was pushing
for a return label as soon as the refund was in hand. I wasn't going to waste $45 out of my pocket to ship the damaged cymbal back to them. Once I had label the cymbal was out the next morning at 9 am. I contacted EBay
today and filed a complaint to get that Seller FB Reply removed....and to relook into this entire case to ensure the seller was at least flagged for his behavior. I also noticed they had that other NEG FB from April removed
somehow....as they're back to 100% FB rating again. I wonder if this guy "coerces" or threatens buyers to the point where the aggrieved buyers recant their FB's ?

 

[Gordie59]

Ad is deceptive in my opinion it is exactly " Not as described" . Cannot say if it was done on purpose by the seller for sure. However the seller is obviously off their rails. If I were in your shoes I would take lots of pictures during the repackaging process and send it back. Then empty your PayPal account or whatever you have linked to eBay for a while. You've done nothing wrong here, and that cymbal should have been marked as edges warped and Fair condition and priced approx half of what you paid. I've bought and sold dozens of EAKs over the years you're spot on about the value. Good Luck.

Ebay needs to delete the seller's account for this egregious episode