Jazz comping - How important it is to practice in 4 or 8 bars phrases?

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When practicing comping how important is it to practice in 4 or 8 bars sections?
I mean, for example, if I take a figure practice a fixed number of bar (usually 4 or 8), then taking another figure again for the same fixed numbers of bars, etc.
Unless I'm really concentrating I usually get lost in the number of bars I'm at and end up just go through different figure at random, some I'll play more, some less.
So I was wondering if that was wrong in the long wrong, I mean I was losing some content in the practice?
Is it because I'm still just to much of a beginner and should still learn better the figure?

Just wondering what others think about this?
 
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Maybe practise with a play-along. Harmonic schemes are ost ofte 8 bar, or 12 bar with the blues form. That way, you hear your comping in relation to the rest of the music, and ou learn to hear in those phrases.

On your own, it can be difficult as you have no guidelines. If 4- or 8-bar phrases are difficult, use 2-bar phrases first.
 
I think it's important to know where you are at all times. If you practice 4's and 8's phrases enough, you'll start to feel them, and won't have to count as much. This will help overall, and especially when trading with a band.

If you're getting lost, I guess that means you really DO need to practice it.

Good luck
 
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Just learning to play phrases in 4 or 8 isn't enough. You'll need to learn to phrase your parts musically in the constraints of the tune(s). Just "fitting cool stuff in" always made me feel lost when I first started and still does occasionally if I get too silly. Learning to phrase musical statements (playing my own version of the melody or rhythm of the song, for instance) made ALL the difference in the world. Sometimes, I may play phrases unrelated, but they are ones that I can play musically and know they fit (usually!) For someone like me who never plays the same thing twice... its similar but different.

As above, find some play-alongs or just play along with records you like. Piano/bass or piano/guitar recordings are great for this.
Hope this helps.
Mike B
 
Being able to play patterns for a specific number of bars is extremely important. If you are getting lost in a 4 bar stretch, try instead starting with 2 bar stretch. When you've got that down perfect, then do 4 bars. When that is perfect, try 8 bars. If you have to count, that's fine. Eventually you'll probably start hearing it and won't need to count as much.

It is especially useful practice when the pattern itself doesn't divide nicely into 2-beat chunks. For example, take a pattern that is 3 beats long and figure out how to play it for exactly 2 bars, then 4 bars, the 8 bars, always making sure you end at exactly the correct spot.

Being able to hold the form solidly regardless of what you or the band is playing is crucial to your job as a drummer and serving the tune.
 
I would recommend learning the melodies to some jazz standards, that way you can sing the melody while practicing comping phrases.

Playing while singing the melody gives your practice a direct musical application and sense of context. I also think that it will ingrain AABA and ABAC forms into your subconscious and will make it easier to always know your place in the form when you're playing with other musicians.
 
You need to have a good feel for phrases, and the forms of tunes, so yes, it's very important. That's the whole basis of everything you play in jazz. Four measures, eight measures, blues, AABA.

Your teacher's job is to tell you how much you need to worry about it right now. There may be more pressing things to focus on, if all the fundamentals aren't happening.

But you can start by thinking in two measure phrases-- even if you're playing a repeating pattern, think in terms of A measure / B measure. If you use the book Syncopation, all of the rhythms are written out in four measure lines, which helps.

Singing a tune or riff helps, playing with people helps. You don't have to learn it just by brute force counting.
 
toddbishop said:
You need to have a good feel for phrases, and the forms of tunes, so yes, it's very important. That's the whole basis of everything you play in jazz. Four measures, eight measures, blues, AABA.

Your teacher's job is to tell you how much you need to worry about it right now. There may be more pressing things to focus on, if all the fundamentals aren't happening.

But you can start by thinking in two measure phrases-- even if you're playing a repeating pattern, think in terms of A measure / B measure. If you use the book Syncopation, all of the rhythms are written out in four measure lines, which helps.

Singing a tune or riff helps, playing with people helps. You don't have to learn it just by brute force counting.
Click to expand...
But (while agreeing with most everything Todd wrote), you ultimately have to be able to keep your place though 4 and 8 bar phrases. If a tune or a riff helps you to learn that, great! But if used as crutch or workaround to not learn it... not a good idea.

I agree with everyone that suggests building up to it. If you are working with one measure phrases - play one phrase twice then the next phrase twice and back and forth.... two bar phrases. You could double this to work on 4 bar sections - or you could maybe play pattern A 3x then play pattern B once. Or any other combinations.

The important thing is, I think, to better use your practice time to work on more than one thing at a time. So while you're playing a one bar phrase repetitively - you are also working on counting... keeping your place.

This is a skill that is primary to becoming a truly competent drummer - one that isn't just following along, but one that can lead, that knows where they're at in the music at all times.

But baby steps - none of this happens over night - and it's not always easy. The fact that you need to really concentrate to play these exercises and keep track of the count is just evidence that you simply need to concentrating like that all of the time. Another important skill - concentrating all of the time - and one that only comes from working it constantly.

Sorry if I'm sounding like a buzzkill - because I'm not meaning to be. It's just that the challenge and difficulty it takes to put together each aspect of our playing is in many ways the fun.

So have fun! :)
 
Back in the early 80s , I told my teacher i wanted to start using the Adv Tech Jim Chapin Vol 1 book.
I remember the exercises, but the one thing that i eventually realized DECADES later, was how MUSICAL those 32 bar exercises were.
As a kid, they were just physical exercises and reading exercises. 3 decades later, i dig the book, and just hit the 32 bar exercises, and after 30 years of playing and growing, when i played them, i realized they werent JUST exercises, they were musical phrases... I could practically here tunes AABA in my head. It really gave me a new appreciation for a book that had already made a huge impact in my drumming, but the phrasing was the thing i did NOT grasp at 14 years old

listening to some of my favs like Jo Jones, Joe Morello and Gene Krupa, they were SO musical in their phrasing...it wasnt just drumming , it was playing the tune.
 
dcrigger said:
you ultimately have to be able to keep your place though 4 and 8 bar phrases. If a tune or a riff helps you to learn that, great! But if used as crutch or workaround to not learn it... not a good idea.
Click to expand...

Sure-- people just get very one dimensional in how they do things, and do them in the hardest way possible. All these things support each other, and add up to a total understanding of phrasing in a musical way, while making the whole problem easier. I also think somebody who just knew a lot of tunes and riffs would be in pretty good shape-- just nobody ever does it that way now. Most often they don't know anywhere near enough music.
 
toddbishop said:
Sure-- people just get very one dimensional in how they do things, and do them in the hardest way possible. All these things support each other, and add up to a total understanding of phrasing in a musical way, while making the whole problem easier. I also think somebody who just knew a lot of tunes and riffs would be in pretty good shape-- just nobody ever does it that way now. Most often they don't know anywhere near enough music.
Click to expand...
Oh I'm not discounting the need to know tons of music - just pointing out that to function professionally - especially in jazz - being able to hear four and eight bar phrases is a must. And not just when there's known changes leading the player, but no matter what is going on.

Frankly I think we are both seeing the same ultimate goal - but no, I don't really see how knowing a bunch of tunes and riffs - minus the ability to keep one's place within structures (outside of just "following along") would really work at all. Without that ability how would one translate all of these tunes and riffs to other music... music they don't know - without some mastery of the underlying structure. But more importantly, I don't even how someone could get to that place of "musical awareness" with acquiring the ability to hear and understand and keep ones place within four and 8 bar phrases in the first place.

Jazz tunes - all tunes for that matter - have a structure. They just don't exist individually - there is always tons of shared ground with other tunes - harmonically, rhythmically and structurally. 12 bar blues, AABA, etc... learning tunes without connecting them in our heads to these structures would seem to be missing the point as to why to learn them in the first place. IMO
 
Thanks so much for all the answers!
This confirm what I mostly thought but was afraid of...

Makes me realize one thing also, I took lessons when I was beginning, when I was younger. Learned some basics: some reading, some techniques, some rudiments, was starting jazz stuff when I stopped. etc. Although in term of time, I was there for a long stretch (a couple years probably, maybe more), looking back I do not feel I progress that much, anyhow... but I have some basics.
I thought I had enough so I can go through books and do some things by myself.
But reading all this, and especially Todd comments, it my made me realize that getting a teacher might be best right now to guide me more efficiently in what I should do with the abilities, and where I want to go.
 
melatony said:
Thanks so much for all the answers!
This confirm what I mostly thought but was afraid of...

Makes me realize one thing also, I took lessons when I was beginning, when I was younger. Learned some basics: some reading, some techniques, some rudiments, was starting jazz stuff when I stopped. etc. Although in term of time, I was there for a long stretch (a couple years probably, maybe more), looking back I do not feel I progress that much, anyhow... but I have some basics.
I thought I had enough so I can go through books and do some things by myself.
But reading all this, and especially Todd comments, it my made me realize that getting a teacher might be best right now to guide me more efficiently in what I should do with the abilities, and where I want to go.
Click to expand...
I would recommend counting in all of your method practice. Eventually, you become so familiar with the feel of 2, 4, 8, 12, 16, etc. measures you no longer have to consciously count it out.
 
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