need help identifying china 13 1/4" ? Cymbal

[BillySlingerland]

Hey Guys and Gals Got this 14" China Cymbal in a buy of various 60's drums/cymbals and just need one
of you cymbal experts to help me identify it..My take on it is it's an early Zildjian factory second but it
has no Zildjian Stamp on it just stamped "S". Second to last pic is before cleaning (I know it's not popular to clean vintage cymbals lol)
Can any of you more Cymbal Knowledgeable dudes/dudettes help me out? Thanks, Billy

 

[Tama CW]

The "S" stamp would indicate a second, or one deemed to be not up to full Zildjian standards. It's still a Zildjian A.
Looks to be from the 60's to 80's based on lathing. The bell is awfully large imo.....possibly 5" or large....too big for a 14" that normally has a 4" bell.
Any chance this shows signs of being cut down? The edge looks a bit rough or serrated in the photo.

 

[BillySlingerland]

Hi Thanks, yes it's possible it was cut down some of the edges look a bit wonky.
I read somewhere that Zildjian gave the S designation for asthetic imperfections but not quality of sound..much
like Gibson Guitars did with their second stamp on les pauls etc...
Thanks for your input.

Billy

 

[zenstat]

That looks like a regular cymbal which has been inverted, as well as being cut down. It is not a China, nor Swish, nor Pang. Tama CW is right about the size of the bell. I've got a 14" Hi Hat which is cut down from an 18". The bell has the same proportions as yours seems to. Zildjian uses a Medium Cup on 18" and larger cymbals. During the likely years for your cymbal 17" and smaller cymbals had the Small Cup. So yours would have been 18" or more before cutting down.

Given it has been inverted and cut down I don't like your chances of popping it back into normal shape. You don't have leverage with the rest of the cymbal missing.

I'd love to know where you read that Zildjian used the S designation "for asthetic imperfections but not quality of sound". I am still collating information on when the S designation was used to update my older work. We know it started early (by the 1940s) and continued for a few decades.

Stamp Anomalies

black.net.nz

I'll come back with images of inversion and my Medium Cup cut down to 14" Hat when I get a chance.

 

[zenstat]

Here is an inverted cymbal. 16" Small Stamp. Looks like yours but with the Small Cup. Claimed it was a China. Not a China.

Common cup sizes

 

[zenstat]

My 14" Large Stamp (LS1 aka block stamp) showing the relatively large size of bell (which is a Medium Cup).

Paired with a normal 14" hat with Small Cup you can see the difference clearly enough.

The 14" cut down hat nested into another Large Stamp 18" shows how the bow curvature matches perfectly. I also tried it nested in a 19", 20" and 22" to see that it didn't nest as perfectly.

Given that yours is not just cut down but also inverted, I don't believe it would ever do as a Hi Hat, but it might make an interesting effects cymbal. But I can't know for sure as I haven't had hands on an inverted cut down cymbal.

 

[zenstat]

Just to tidy off the story about "S" or second cymbals:

Frequently Asked Questions | Zildjian

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We have examples of "S" stamped cymbals going back to the 1940s as I showed on my site. Perhaps those who wrote "the sixties" in the FAQ weren't around in the 60s, and are like so many who think that the 60s is "really old" and put everything into that category. The latest example I have looks 70s enough to me. 20" and 2406g and looks like

So the evidence for the end of the "S" period is consistent with the Zildjian FAQ. However, not all seconds have an "S" which complicates matters. I haven't had time to go thought all my thousands of records and images to tidy up all the cymbals which we are sure are A Zildjian but lack either an "S" or an ordinary trademark stamp. Then there are the cymbals produced for certain dealers which have other things pressed in...like ZILWAVE for Frank Wolf.