Non-proggy odd time songs! GO!!

[Flamateur Hour]

King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard does some odd time stuff across multiple genres too:

Shanghai is (I believe) 19/8 and 4/4 polymeter which is fun sounding.

Gamma Knife has lots of 11/8 in it AND a drum solo (and a spinny nauseating video lol)

Crumbling Castle has... a lot

Venusian 1 has some 15, some 9, and other stuff.

What I appreciate is their ability to use polyrhythm to mask time signatures in a way that makes it float, while still making the odd time things apparent.

Regarding the "Crumbling Castle" song, I found this time signature description from some random (deleted) user on Reddit. It's kind of confusing because they used brackets and stuff to show things happening at the same time. Either way, they put in some work lol:

Crumbling Castle: starts with 1 bar of 5/16 and then does 14 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16 and then {[the guitar does 12 bars of 7/8][the vocals do (5 bars of 3/8 and then 4 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 3/8)x2][the bass does (1 bar of 5/16 and then 10 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16)x2] and the drums follow the rhythm of the bass} and then 2 bars of 10/4 and then {[the guitar does 1 bar of 10/4][everything else does 4 bars of 5/8]} and then 83 bars of 5/8(during this section the vocals do pattern of 10/8 being counted as 6/8 + 4/8) and then {[the drums and bass do 1 bar of 5/16 and then 37 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16][the vocals and guitar enter after (1 bar of 5/16 and then 14 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16) and what the guitar then does is 12 bars of 7/8 while the vocals do (5 bars of 3/8 and then 4 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 3/8)x2]} and then (1 bar of 12/8 and then 1 bar of 9/8)x2 and then 4 bars of 7/8 and then {[the vocals do (2 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 9/8)x4][1 guitar does 28 bars of 3/8][the drums and bass and guitars do 12 bars of 7/8]} and then 4 bars of 7/8 and then {[the synth flute does 12 bars of 3/8 and then 1 bar of 4/8][the drums and bass do 8 bars of 5/8]} and then {[the vocals and guitar do (3 bars of 4/4 and then 1 bar of 3/4)x2][the drums and bass do 12 bars of 5/8]} and then {[2 guitars do (2 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 9/8)x4][the guitar that strums a chord every once in a while and the drums and the bass do 12 bars of 7/8]} and then {[the vocals and the guitars do (2 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 9/8)x4][there’s a guitar that does 28 bars of 3/8][the drums and bass do 12 bars of 7/8]} and then 4 bars of 7/8 and then {[the synth flutes do 26 bars of 3/8 and then 1 bar of 5/4][the bass does 32 bars of 5/16][the drums do 8 bars of 10/8][the other flutes and the xylophone do (1 bar of 7/8 and then 1 bar of 5/8 and then 1 bar of 8/8 and then 1 bar of 12/8 and then 1 bar of 8/8)x2]} and then {[the bass does 24 bars of 5/16][the vocals do 2 bars of 15/4(counted as 1 bar of 8/4 and then 1 bar of 7/4)][the drums do 6 bars of 10/8][the guitar does 30 bars of 2/8]} and then {[the bass and drums do 1 bar of 5/16 and then 30 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16][the guitar enters after 2 bars of 7/8 and it does 12 bars of 7/8][the vocals enter after 4 bars of 7/8 and they do 14 bars of 6/8]} and then {[the synth does 52 bars of 5/16][the drums and the guitar enter after 28 bars of 5/16 and they do 12 bars of 5/8][the vocals enter after 36 bars of 5/16 and they do 2 bars of 10/4]} and then 26 bars of 4/8 and then 16 bars of 5/8 and then there’s 6 bars of 5/8 of silence and then 8 bars of 7/2 and then the last beat fades out.

 

[s1212z]

Regarding the "Crumbling Castle" song, I found this time signature description from some random (deleted) user on Reddit. It's kind of confusing because they used brackets and stuff to show things happening at the same time. Either way, they put in some work lol:

Crumbling Castle: starts with 1 bar of 5/16 and then does 14 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16 and then {[the guitar does 12 bars of 7/8][the vocals do (5 bars of 3/8 and then 4 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 3/8)x2][the bass does (1 bar of 5/16 and then 10 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16)x2] and the drums follow the rhythm of the bass} and then 2 bars of 10/4 and then {[the guitar does 1 bar of 10/4][everything else does 4 bars of 5/8]} and then 83 bars of 5/8(during this section the vocals do pattern of 10/8 being counted as 6/8 + 4/8) and then {[the drums and bass do 1 bar of 5/16 and then 37 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16][the vocals and guitar enter after (1 bar of 5/16 and then 14 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16) and what the guitar then does is 12 bars of 7/8 while the vocals do (5 bars of 3/8 and then 4 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 3/8)x2]} and then (1 bar of 12/8 and then 1 bar of 9/8)x2 and then 4 bars of 7/8 and then {[the vocals do (2 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 9/8)x4][1 guitar does 28 bars of 3/8][the drums and bass and guitars do 12 bars of 7/8]} and then 4 bars of 7/8 and then {[the synth flute does 12 bars of 3/8 and then 1 bar of 4/8][the drums and bass do 8 bars of 5/8]} and then {[the vocals and guitar do (3 bars of 4/4 and then 1 bar of 3/4)x2][the drums and bass do 12 bars of 5/8]} and then {[2 guitars do (2 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 9/8)x4][the guitar that strums a chord every once in a while and the drums and the bass do 12 bars of 7/8]} and then {[the vocals and the guitars do (2 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 9/8)x4][there’s a guitar that does 28 bars of 3/8][the drums and bass do 12 bars of 7/8]} and then 4 bars of 7/8 and then {[the synth flutes do 26 bars of 3/8 and then 1 bar of 5/4][the bass does 32 bars of 5/16][the drums do 8 bars of 10/8][the other flutes and the xylophone do (1 bar of 7/8 and then 1 bar of 5/8 and then 1 bar of 8/8 and then 1 bar of 12/8 and then 1 bar of 8/8)x2]} and then {[the bass does 24 bars of 5/16][the vocals do 2 bars of 15/4(counted as 1 bar of 8/4 and then 1 bar of 7/4)][the drums do 6 bars of 10/8][the guitar does 30 bars of 2/8]} and then {[the bass and drums do 1 bar of 5/16 and then 30 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16][the guitar enters after 2 bars of 7/8 and it does 12 bars of 7/8][the vocals enter after 4 bars of 7/8 and they do 14 bars of 6/8]} and then {[the synth does 52 bars of 5/16][the drums and the guitar enter after 28 bars of 5/16 and they do 12 bars of 5/8][the vocals enter after 36 bars of 5/16 and they do 2 bars of 10/4]} and then 26 bars of 4/8 and then 16 bars of 5/8 and then there’s 6 bars of 5/8 of silence and then 8 bars of 7/2 and then the last beat fades out.

Yeah, I would generally avoid writing anything like that if it were notation...whoever has the higher number gets the time signature and the lower get the subdivisions till the resolve I'd be more inclined. Could actually write the entire thing in 4/4 if so desired, ha

 

[dcrigger]

This is a fun one.
It's generally written in 4, but none of the instrumental parts are felt that way

Rhythmically, the piano is playing the same rhythm as a bossa nova: 3 + 3 + 4 + 3 + 3, repeated two times: (1_ _+ __ 4_ | __ 2_ _+ __)
So that's easy enough to write as 4/4... but that doesn't line up with the chord changes.
Looking at those, the piano is playing 5/4 + 9/8 + 7/8 + 6/8. (with the pulse in groups of 8 notes: 3 + 3 + 4, 3 + 3 + 3, 3 + 4, 3 + 3)
(note that's the same bossa nova pattern of 3 + 3 + 4 + 3 + 3, repeated twice, but just grouped differently)

Over top of that, the drums (entering around 2:07) are playing 3/4 + 3/4 + 2/4, two times (swung 8ths: 1_ 2+ 3_ | 1_ 2+ 3_ | 1+ 2_)
Phil Selway (Radiohead drummer) says he feels it in a swung 4, but that means he's playing the following pattern: (1_ 2+ 3_ 4_ | 1+ 2_ 3+ 4_ ) -- I find that much harder to groove to than the 3/4 + 3/4 + 2/4 treatment.

So every 4 bars of 4/4, the pieces all line up:
Piano (rhythm): 3 + 3 + 4 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 4 + 3 + 3 = 32 8th notes
Piano (chords): 5/4 + 9/8 + 7/8 + 6/8 = 32 8th notes
Drums: 3/4 + 3/4 + 2/4 + 3/4 + 3/4 + 2/4 = 16 quarter notes (which is 32 8th notes)

4/4 makes sense for notating, but wow, it's a mindgame to try to actually count / feel it in 4

I think it is often real tempting to think of things in odd meters or mixed meters - when they are in fact, just accents and syncopated rhythms in 4/4. And chords that are just changing in odd parts of the bar.

Lots of very rhythmically sophisticated and deceptive music has been written in 4/4. So often the simplistic answer is the answer.

And while it can be oftentimes helpful

 

[MrDrums2112]

Led Zeppelin - The Crunge (in 9).

 

[dcrigger]

Regarding the "Crumbling Castle" song, I found this time signature description from some random (deleted) user on Reddit. It's kind of confusing because they used brackets and stuff to show things happening at the same time. Either way, they put in some work lol:

Crumbling Castle: starts with 1 bar of 5/16 and then does 14 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16 and then {[the guitar does 12 bars of 7/8][the vocals do (5 bars of 3/8 and then 4 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 3/8)x2][the bass does (1 bar of 5/16 and then 10 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16)x2] and the drums follow the rhythm of the bass} and then 2 bars of 10/4 and then {[the guitar does 1 bar of 10/4][everything else does 4 bars of 5/8]} and then 83 bars of 5/8(during this section the vocals do pattern of 10/8 being counted as 6/8 + 4/8) and then {[the drums and bass do 1 bar of 5/16 and then 37 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16][the vocals and guitar enter after (1 bar of 5/16 and then 14 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16) and what the guitar then does is 12 bars of 7/8 while the vocals do (5 bars of 3/8 and then 4 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 3/8)x2]} and then (1 bar of 12/8 and then 1 bar of 9/8)x2 and then 4 bars of 7/8 and then {[the vocals do (2 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 9/8)x4][1 guitar does 28 bars of 3/8][the drums and bass and guitars do 12 bars of 7/8]} and then 4 bars of 7/8 and then {[the synth flute does 12 bars of 3/8 and then 1 bar of 4/8][the drums and bass do 8 bars of 5/8]} and then {[the vocals and guitar do (3 bars of 4/4 and then 1 bar of 3/4)x2][the drums and bass do 12 bars of 5/8]} and then {[2 guitars do (2 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 9/8)x4][the guitar that strums a chord every once in a while and the drums and the bass do 12 bars of 7/8]} and then {[the vocals and the guitars do (2 bars of 6/8 and then 1 bar of 9/8)x4][there’s a guitar that does 28 bars of 3/8][the drums and bass do 12 bars of 7/8]} and then 4 bars of 7/8 and then {[the synth flutes do 26 bars of 3/8 and then 1 bar of 5/4][the bass does 32 bars of 5/16][the drums do 8 bars of 10/8][the other flutes and the xylophone do (1 bar of 7/8 and then 1 bar of 5/8 and then 1 bar of 8/8 and then 1 bar of 12/8 and then 1 bar of 8/8)x2]} and then {[the bass does 24 bars of 5/16][the vocals do 2 bars of 15/4(counted as 1 bar of 8/4 and then 1 bar of 7/4)][the drums do 6 bars of 10/8][the guitar does 30 bars of 2/8]} and then {[the bass and drums do 1 bar of 5/16 and then 30 bars of 7/16 and then 1 bar of 9/16][the guitar enters after 2 bars of 7/8 and it does 12 bars of 7/8][the vocals enter after 4 bars of 7/8 and they do 14 bars of 6/8]} and then {[the synth does 52 bars of 5/16][the drums and the guitar enter after 28 bars of 5/16 and they do 12 bars of 5/8][the vocals enter after 36 bars of 5/16 and they do 2 bars of 10/4]} and then 26 bars of 4/8 and then 16 bars of 5/8 and then there’s 6 bars of 5/8 of silence and then 8 bars of 7/2 and then the last beat fades out.

Really a classic example of thinking that every rhythmic expression is a time signature.... that playing a group of five 16ths, followed by a second group of five 16ths followed by two groups of three 16ths automatically means the time signature is 5/16 for two bars and 3/16 for two bars.

Context. It is all about context. What else is going on? It might be 5/8 + 3/8. But there's a real good chance that it is simply in 4/4 with an odd grouping of accents.

Point is.... yes, there are a bunch of different meters going on in that piece. But for the lion's share of it - there is one meter that seems predominant - fundamental with everything else being laid on top of it. And while it is a shorthand to talk of playing multiple bars of one signature over another. That is just a slang. There are usually not two time signatures - but one with an odd repetitive phrase being played on top of it.

Which may just sound like semantics. But when it comes to play this stuff and locking it in, it really isn't.

 

[bpaluzzi]

I think it is often real tempting to think of things in odd meters or mixed meters - when they are in fact, just accents and syncopated rhythms in 4/4. And chords that are just changing in odd parts of the bar.

Lots of very rhythmically sophisticated and deceptive music has been written in 4/4. So often the simplistic answer is the answer.

And while it can be oftentimes helpful

Yup - totally agree that 4/4 is probably the "correct" answer here, especially since different instruments are playing things in different "implied" time signatures.

However, I definitely think there's value to investigating what the parts are constructed from -- both in terms of the purely academic experience (I never would have noticed the Pyramid Song / Bossa Nova connection without doing a deep dive), but also in terms of helping to "feel" the parts. The drum part in this is a great example -- 1 2a 3 | 1 2a 3 | 1 a2 is a lot easier for me to feel/play than 1 2a 3 4 | 1a 2 3a 4.

 

[311Club]

Bridge is in 9, isn't it?

Some Purple might be Prog, not this song though. Agree?

 

[dcrigger]

Yup - totally agree that 4/4 is probably the "correct" answer here, especially since different instruments are playing things in different "implied" time signatures.

However, I definitely think there's value to investigating what the parts are constructed from -- both in terms of the purely academic experience (I never would have noticed the Pyramid Song / Bossa Nova connection without doing a deep dive), but also in terms of helping to "feel" the parts. The drum part in this is a great example -- 1 2a 3 | 1 2a 3 | 1 a2 is a lot easier for me to feel/play than 1 2a 3 4 | 1a 2 3a 4.

Agree 100% as far as figuring things out in order to know and understand what is going on. I do this constantly. Even sometimes thinking of the secondary part in terms of time signatures. (even though they probably aren't)

As for that drum part - which is really a quite common device - four dotted quarters played across the bar line of 4/4 followed by two 1/4's. "String of Pearls" anyone? And laying into the 3+3+2 aspect of it can feel great - but IMO only if we don't lose track of the underlying 4/4 to the point we pull away from it or can't jump back into the 4/4 at any point. It's like a juggling act - trying to keep both mental plates spinning at the same time.

 

[retroplate]

Salsibury Hill, Peter Gabriel. Or is that prog?

I don't really consider that one prog rock. It's more of pop rock song in 7.

Triplet Cookbook for Drumset Independence

This must have book breaks down the triplet rhythm, making playing them much easier and culminates with a basic understanding of four way independence. “Mi...

1stdrumlessonsonline.com

Mike
http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com
https://drumcavedave.com/
https://www.youtube.com/user/drummermikemccraw
http://twitter.com/mikemccraw
http://www.skillpages.com/mike.mccraw

 

[retroplate]

Sting -

Straight to my Heart - Nothing Like the Sun
Love is Stronger than Justice (The Magnificent Seven) - 10 Summoners' Tales
St. Augustine in Hell - 10 Summoners' Tales
Seven Days - 10 Summoners' Tales
I Hung My Head - Mercury Falling

Tom Scott - Get Grip - Flashpoint

Triplet Cookbook for Drumset Independence

This must have book breaks down the triplet rhythm, making playing them much easier and culminates with a basic understanding of four way independence. “Mi...

1stdrumlessonsonline.com

Mike
http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com
https://drumcavedave.com/
https://www.youtube.com/user/drummermikemccraw
http://twitter.com/mikemccraw
http://www.skillpages.com/mike.mccraw

 

[Flamateur Hour]

Really a classic example of thinking that every rhythmic expression is a time signature.... that playing a group of five 16ths, followed by a second group of five 16ths followed by two groups of three 16ths automatically means the time signature is 5/16 for two bars and 3/16 for two bars.

Context. It is all about context. What else is going on? It might be 5/8 + 3/8. But there's a real good chance that it is simply in 4/4 with an odd grouping of accents.

Point is.... yes, there are a bunch of different meters going on in that piece. But for the lion's share of it - there is one meter that seems predominant - fundamental with everything else being laid on top of it. And while it is a shorthand to talk of playing multiple bars of one signature over another. That is just a slang. There are usually not two time signatures - but one with an odd repetitive phrase being played on top of it.

Which may just sound like semantics. But when it comes to play this stuff and locking it in, it really isn't.

I feel that, and I think it's important to recognize this "everything is 4/4" nature, but it doesn't really speak to my personal experience with playing this kind of stuff.

For me, there's some degree of experiencing the different levels of granularity within the piece, an experience where the context is impacted heavily by how my part interacts with specific other band member's parts at different points in the song. Sometimes I'm counting 4/4 and hearing the music as an accent pattern underneath me, and sometimes I'm counting measures and part of the turning gears within the song, actively avoiding hearing anything but my part and how its subdivisions lock in.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that... yes "there are a bunch of different meters going on in that piece. But for the lions share of it - there is one meter that seems predominant", so too could it be said that "There is one meter that seems predominant. But for the lions share of the song, there are a bunch of different meters going on in that piece".

Which to me, is the important part of locking something in. It's the "inside" part of knowing something "inside and out".

 

[dje31]

The main riff in Possum Kingdom is a 4 bar phrase consisting of bars of 4/4, 3/4, 4/4 and 4/4. It adds up to 15 beats, but no one in their right mind would consider that 15/4 time.

I would think it's either 15/16 or a mix of 8/8 + 7/8

Fun(ish) story: I was in Memphis for a conference, having lunch at a bar / restaurant, and the Toadies were in-town there for a gig, grabbing a bite and drink at this establishment, either before or after soundcheck. A random brush with celebrite', though I left them alone.

 

[bpaluzzi]

I would think it's either 15/16 or a mix of 8/8 + 7/8

Fun(ish) story: I was in Memphis for a conference, having lunch at a bar / restaurant, and the Toadies were in-town there for a gig, grabbing a bite and drink at this establishment, either before or after soundcheck. A random brush with celebrite', though I left them alone.

Neither 15/16 nor 7/8 are in that song.

You could hear it as a bar of 7/4 then two bars of 4/4, but I definitely tend to hear it the way Chris described: a normal 4 bar / 4/4 phrase, but with one of the bars of four shortened to a bar of 3/4

 

[Steech]

Neither 15/16 nor 7/8 are in that song.

You could hear it as a bar of 7/4 then two bars of 4/4, but I definitely tend to hear it the way Chris described: a normal 4 bar / 4/4 phrase, but with one of the bars of four shortened to a bar of 3/4

Looks like I’m going to die a painful death up here on my 15 hill.

 

[bpaluzzi]

Looks like I’m going to die a painful death up here on my 15 hill.

You could technically at least feel it as 15/4, but that'd be like calling a regular pop song "16/4" or "32/4".

15/16 or 7/8 aren't applicable at all.

 

[Steech]

Bridge is in 9, isn't it?

Some Purple might be Prog, not this song though. Agree?

Not prog.

 

[Steech]

You could technically at least feel it as 15/4, but that'd be like calling a regular pop song "16/4" or "32/4".

15/16 or 7/8 aren't applicable at all.

It’s interesting…I have always felt and played it as a 15, so even though it’s not correct technically, it works for me.

 

[kallen49]

Sting -


I Hung My Head - Mercury Falling

and it's a country tune, covered by Johny Cash! I learned the vocal and the drums...well I tried,
drummers who also want to sing lead while playing drums may want to try "I hung my head" as an exercise...

 

[dcrigger]

I feel that, and I think it's important to recognize this "everything is 4/4" nature, but it doesn't really speak to my personal experience with playing this kind of stuff.

For me, there's some degree of experiencing the different levels of granularity within the piece, an experience where the context is impacted heavily by how my part interacts with specific other band member's parts at different points in the song. Sometimes I'm counting 4/4 and hearing the music as an accent pattern underneath me, and sometimes I'm counting measures and part of the turning gears within the song, actively avoiding hearing anything but my part and how its subdivisions lock in.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that... yes "there are a bunch of different meters going on in that piece. But for the lions share of it - there is one meter that seems predominant", so too could it be said that "There is one meter that seems predominant. But for the lions share of the song, there are a bunch of different meters going on in that piece".

Which to me, is the important part of locking something in. It's the "inside" part of knowing something "inside and out".

Just to be clear (probably need to be), everything most certainly not in 4/4 (a good chunk of my playing life has been dedicated to proving just the opposite. And yes, there plenty of times where there can at least seem to be multiple time signatures going in at once - or more commonly multiple groups of subdivisions that fit within the same space.

My main point was just because someone strings a bunch of groups of five 16th notes doesn’t mean they are playing in 5/16. They are just groups of five played over whatever the main time signature is. Or just because a chord change happens on an unusual beat doesn’t mean that there is necessarily involved.

But certainly being as aware as possible of everything going on is always a big plus.

 

[Steech]

Just to be clear (probably need to be), everything most certainly not in 4/4 (a good chunk of my playing life has been dedicated to proving just the opposite. And yes, there plenty of times where there can at least seem to be multiple time signatures going in at once - or more commonly multiple groups of subdivisions that fit within the same space.

My main point was just because someone strings a bunch of groups of five 16th notes doesn’t mean they are playing in 5/16. They are just groups of five played over whatever the main time signature is. Or just because a chord change happens on an unusual beat doesn’t mean that there is necessarily involved.

But certainly being as aware as possible of everything going on is always a big plus.

My whole point with starting this thread was to share examples of unusual timing in popular music. That was really it. As we can clearly see in the discussions here, there are various ways for people to hear/understand/interpret those unusual structures. If you see it all as being in 4/4 - just for example - that’s totally fine. I started a similar thread not too long ago in which I suggested feeling a painfully slow 4 in 6 in order to get a better handle on keeping it steady. That approach works great for me and that’s good enough for my purposes. And the same thing goes for my feeling Possum Kingdom as being in 15/4 even though I am hearing that it’s not. Again, it works for me..