Paiste 602 reissue vs Masters: alloy

[Stuffed Chimp]

Leaving aside the original Twenty/Diril debacle from several years ago, does anyone know whether the current Masters alloy is sourced from the same factory as the 602 reissues, or is it from elsewhere?

If its from elsewhere, are any of the blanks worked at all before they arrive in Switzerland?

Just curious is all, as the two cymbal series exhibit completely different tonal characteristics to my ear. If they are from identical blanks it gives me a much greater appreciation for the Paiste cymbalsmiths!

 

[jtpaistegeist]

Not 100% on this, but I do believe that the 602 bronze comes from Germany, and the Masters bronze from Turkey. From what I understand, Paiste went quite a while without producing the 602 series due to not being able to attain the quality of bronze that they wanted. Until recently.

Agreed on them having different tonal characteristics. The 602's are so precise, while the Masters have a mix of shimmer, and the old K thing going on. I love both series and almost always have both on my kit.

 

[shiek_yerbouti]

I wonder how it would sound if they made a 602 out of that Turkish bronze? How different would it sound if they followed all the same steps?

 

[RickP]

I have read numerous reports that the discs of B20 bronze for the 602s are produced by a large Metal company in Germany. The B20 bronze blanks for the Masters come from Turkey and the shaping and finishing is done in the Notwill plant in Switzerland. I am a fan of both the 602s and the Masters series and own cymbals from both series. My personal preference of the two lines is the 602s.

I am not quite sure how well the 602 production process would work with the Turkish blanks to be honest. The extreme quality of the blank discs they receive from Germany IMHO would have far more stringent consistent quality control in the manufacturing process. I would think 602s made from the Turkish blanks would have less consistency than we have come to see from the 602s made currently.

 

[zenstat]

I have read numerous reports that the discs of B20 bronze for the 602s are produced by a large Metal company in Germany. The B20 bronze blanks for the Masters come from Turkey and the shaping and finishing is done in the Notwill plant in Switzerland. I am a fan of both the 602s and the Masters series and own cymbals from both series. My personal preference of the two lines is the 602s.

I am not quite sure how well the 602 production process would work with the Turkish blanks to be honest. The extreme quality of the blank discs they receive from Germany IMHO would have far more stringent consistent quality control in the manufacturing process. I would think 602s made from the Turkish blanks would have less consistency than we have come to see from the 602s made currently.

Yes, the Masters alloy is B20 from a foundry in Turkey, the 602 alloy is a Phosphor Bronze produced from a foundry in Germany. The 602 alloy is a recreation of the Phosphor Bronze alloy which was originally produced in Switzerland at SwissMetals. The original 602 line went away because SwissMetals stopped producing the alloy, and later closed down entirely.

Yes Paiste say they receive the partially shaped cymbals from Turkey and then they are fine tuned and lathed in Nottwil. I've got a link to an "unboxing" video from Paiste USA about that when the Twenty Masters first came on the scene. I'm not crystal clear from what is said in the video how many hammer blows happen in Turkey vs Switzerland. I don't even know if all the hot work is done in Turkey and the cold work is done in Switzerland, although that would make some sense.

I don't believe the case is proven that 602s made from Turkish blanks would have less consistency that 602s made from 602 material. But it would be an interesting experiment to try. I sometimes wonder if some of the prototypes out there might be early experiments which use the 602 alloy but apply Twenty Masters specs to the cymbals. And some might be Turkish alloy which has had 602 specs applied to the cymbals. I know how to tell the alloys apart if you have fancy testing gear, but I don't have good objective measures of "consistency of sound" which we could apply to the cymbals.

 

[ekim]

Years ago on cymbalholic there was a discussion/argument about 602's .This was before they were rereleased. There were two camps, Rerelease the 602's and "it's impossible to rerelease them." We went back and forth on why and it came down to they can't rerelease them because Paiste used to get B20 sheets from Germany for 602's and they were unable to get them. Few months later I saw that meinl released a sheet B20 cymbal and I noted this on CH. I basically said "well there you go". Within that year or so the 602's were released. I 'm very pleased with the reissues.

 

[michiganice91]

This is honestly the first I have heard that re-issue 602's are sourced from Germany. Does anyone care to share any concrete evidence for this? Twentys are definitely Turkish but I don't know which foundry they're coming from.

On another debate topic, I do not think that the re-issue 602s have quite the same shimmering sound quality as the blue and black label eras. It's a good re-creation, but in no way superior.

 

[Stuffed Chimp]

Some really interesting info here chaps: thanks all.

To those that state the Masters blanks start life in Turkey, do you have any sources for that info?

I only ask because I used to think I had my ear fairly close to the ground and am enough of a Paiste nerd to pick up that sort of info, yet clearly that is no longer the case as its all news to me!

 

[zenstat]

Excellent request for references you two.

This is honestly the first I have heard that re-issue 602's are sourced from Germany. Does anyone care to share any concrete evidence for this?

I know the new 602 alloy is from Germany from personal communication with those involved, but I'm bound by commercial arrangements not to reveal any details. As you probably know Paiste do tend to keep their supplier details out of the public eye as much as possible. The SwissMetal production of the original 602 alloy was known before the company closed, but not talked about in public that much.

As far as the Masters go, here is the March 2011 unboxing video I referred to before:

Starring "Paiste Tim" with a guest appearance by a young Ben White and a young(er) Jim Pettit. Not the best audio representation of the cymbals, but very detailed information about cymbal models (shape, hammering , lathing) and how it relates to sonic outcomes. Time code 9:20 begins the discussion specifically on what is done in Turkey vs Switzerland. My transcription:

"So as with the current Twenty's this is Turkish alloy. They've begun by being hammered and shaped in Turkey, and then we send them to Switzerland where we do the finish hammering and lathing and all the other work that makes it a Paiste cymbal. ...part of that is we have a new supplier for the materials". I think that covers the question, but I'll leave a more complete transcript to somebody else. Paiste Tim does mention consistency in a couple of places (including relating to the new supplier) which underscores what I keep saying about Paiste consistency being possible with a Turkish alloy.

I also mentioned the possibility of 602 alloy cymbals made to the specs of Masters in the experimental stage along the way. Check this out. It was one of the cymbals I had in mind.

(broken link removed)

A pre blue label 602 (given it has a die stamp which is the outline style) turned into a prototype... But of what?

Twentys are definitely Turkish but I don't know which foundry they're coming from.

I don't know what foundry the Turkish sourced alloy is coming from either. In fact, I still haven't come to grips with just how many different foundries there are, and which ones produce which brands. Over the last few years we've seen some of the relationships revealed but it's still a "there are lots of brands which come out of each factory" situation for me.

On another debate topic, I do not think that the re-issue 602s have quite the same shimmering sound quality as the blue and black label eras. It's a good re-creation, but in no way superior.

I don't know of any independent testing done on Black Label, Blue Label, and reissue 602s using a proper blind research design. I'm sure Paiste did some along the way, but as with their alloy supplier that would be proprietary information. As a general rule I don't believe most claims about "A sounds really different from B" because of the blind listening research I know about (or have been involved with). If experienced listeners as a group cannot tell reliably tell an Old K Istanbul from an Avedis Zildjian in blind listening tests, I think we need much better experimental design (and analysis) before we start making statements about all Blue Labels versus all reissues in terms of sonic terms. But then I'm a statistician so I would say that wouldn't I?

See: A test of A vs K listening skills

 

[jtpaistegeist]

Excellent post Steve. That proto is very interesting indeed. Looks almost like my DE MKII Ride top hammering and lathing.

 

[michiganice91]

@steveblack I'm not sure if you know but "Paiste Tim" has a name and it's Tim Shahady. I believe he is the main artist relations manager for North America.

I did show you a couple videos I made of the re-issue hi hats side by side with the blue and black labels, granted that was made with a cell phone. For me personally listening to them I notice significant differences. They all generally sound great though. If I did some professional recordings perhaps that would help provide some more sonic insight.

 

[zenstat]

@steveblack I'm not sure if you know but "Paiste Tim" has a name and it's Tim Shahady. I believe he is the main artist relations manager for North America.

Yes I do know, and it's in the description for the video if you follow the link to YouTube: "Tim Shahady from Paiste America was the Memphis Drum Shop debuting the new Paiste Twenty". That's why this information is about as official as it gets. Plus I heard it on the internet so it must be true. I really just used his nickname "Paiste Tim" as a follow on from the original post about the Diril Debacle because it was Tim Shahady posting as "Paiste Tim" who forwarded the Erik Paiste side of the story.

I did show you a couple videos I made of the re-issue hi hats side by side with the blue and black labels, granted that was made with a cell phone. For me personally listening to them I notice significant differences. They all generally sound great though. If I did some professional recordings perhaps that would help provide some more sonic insight.

This is where the "I'm a statistician" comes in. You need a representative sample of all Blue Label and all Black Label hats. Each representative sample must be large enough to detect systematic differences given the natural variability in both Blue Labels and Black Labels. To calculate the sample size needed, you must do preliminary research on the natural level of variability. You combine this info with the accuracy with which you make assessments of "similar" or "identical". That gives you your target of how many pairs you have to test. Then (and only then) do you get to say "in general Blue Label hats sound different from Black Label hats" if that's what you find. It's about whether you can make robust generalization about all pairs of Blue Label and Black Label hats given you have just one of each and no estimate of the natural variability.

In the case of your two pairs of hats we could do the blind listening thing with a number of experienced listeners getting them to vote. It would be interesting to try. That would tell us whether or not experienced listeners could tell the difference between those specific pairs. Even if we found that the experienced listeners could tell the difference that alone wouldn't let us generalize to all pairs of Black Label or Blue Label hats. What I've done with the A vs K listening tests is a little different in that I'm using the data from 4 specific cymbals to show that experienced listeners cannot tell the difference reliably. Although it only applies to those 4 specific cymbals, it serves as a cautionary tale for people who insist that the two sorts of cymbals sound "completely different". In the case of the "completely different" claim it only takes one counterexample to refute the claim.

In case you think this is a very high bar, I was a University researcher for over 40 years and I used to help others with these sorts of research design and analysis problems as part of my role. Yes we really do this sort of thing, particularly in the areas of Medicine and Public Health where I was based some of the time. Of course doing it for cymbals doesn't attract quite as much funding, and I've gone from having a research team to just me since I retired. But I'm having fun in my dotage.

 

[michiganice91]

No worries Steve. I wasn't sure if you were that familiar with Tim. The nickname kind of reminds me of Terry Keating in his videos talking about "Paiste Bob". I'm always thinking to myself like "who is this Bob guy and what's his actual name??" HAHA.

And you're right about the prospect of comparing large sample sizes of hi hats from all those 602 varieties. Mainly the cost alone and ability to compile such a sufficient sample size of each would render the undertaking nearly impossible. We can dream though right? Maybe it's my Paiste nostalgia taking over....which is odd because most of my Paiste cymbals are as old or older than I am.

 

[nickrobotron]

This is a good thread.

For what it's worth, I've had a serious 602 addiction for the past 2 years. I've owned many weights of many sizes from every generation. To my ears, I prefer the newest generation for the most part. I disagree with a statement above about the reissues lacking the "shimmer" that we all talk about. I am not sure if patina affects this or not, but I find the older 602's to be more creamy and more gong-like. The reissues are shimmery and sweet with a consistency that is almost unreal. The addition of the Modern Essentials line adds a subtle darkness and clunkiness in the crashes that the new thinner reissue crashes don't have.

The one weird exception, and I'm sure some people here could speak to this more, is the Blue Labels. I have had fewer of these than the others. I've never had a Blue Label ride, by the way. But the ones I've owned in the past all have a serious coating on them. They are heavy, bright, gong-like, and the most unusual sounding. Some obviously like them. I personally rank them the lowest. I do really love the ink on them though. It would have been a dream come true if the Modern Essentials had the blue ink... They could have at least put the shooting star stamp on them!

The current 602 line, classics and ME, are just perfect to my ear. I hope they stick around for a while. Everyone needs to check these out with their own ear before they disregard them.

 

[blownaway]

This is a good thread.

The current 602 line, classics and ME, are just perfect to my ear. I hope they stick around for a while. Everyone needs to check these out with their own ear before they disregard them.

I totally agree but I haven’t heard the 602 reissues or classics. I stopped looking further once I heard the 606 ME line. They hit the sweet spot for me also.

 

[nickrobotron]

I totally agree but I haven’t heard the 602 reissues or classics. I stopped looking further once I heard the 606 ME line. They hit the sweet spot for me also.

I have a mix of Modern Essentials and Classics. I love having a faster thin 18".

 

[Stuffed Chimp]

Excellent request for references you two.



I know the new 602 alloy is from Germany from personal communication with those involved, but I'm bound by commercial arrangements not to reveal any details. As you probably know Paiste do tend to keep their supplier details out of the public eye as much as possible. The SwissMetal production of the original 602 alloy was known before the company closed, but not talked about in public that much.

As far as the Masters go, here is the March 2011 unboxing video I referred to before:

Starring "Paiste Tim" with a guest appearance by a young Ben White and a young(er) Jim Pettit. Not the best audio representation of the cymbals, but very detailed information about cymbal models (shape, hammering , lathing) and how it relates to sonic outcomes. Time code 9:20 begins the discussion specifically on what is done in Turkey vs Switzerland. My transcription:

"So as with the current Twenty's this is Turkish alloy. They've begun by being hammered and shaped in Turkey, and then we send them to Switzerland where we do the finish hammering and lathing and all the other work that makes it a Paiste cymbal. ...part of that is we have a new supplier for the materials". I think that covers the question, but I'll leave a more complete transcript to somebody else. Paiste Tim does mention consistency in a couple of places (including relating to the new supplier) which underscores what I keep saying about Paiste consistency being possible with a Turkish alloy.

I also mentioned the possibility of 602 alloy cymbals made to the specs of Masters in the experimental stage along the way. Check this out. It was one of the cymbals I had in mind.

(broken link removed)

A pre blue label 602 (given it has a die stamp which is the outline style) turned into a prototype... But of what?

View attachment 384087

View attachment 384088



I don't know what foundry the Turkish sourced alloy is coming from either. In fact, I still haven't come to grips with just how many different foundries there are, and which ones produce which brands. Over the last few years we've seen some of the relationships revealed but it's still a "there are lots of brands which come out of each factory" situation for me.



I don't know of any independent testing done on Black Label, Blue Label, and reissue 602s using a proper blind research design. I'm sure Paiste did some along the way, but as with their alloy supplier that would be proprietary information. As a general rule I don't believe most claims about "A sounds really different from B" because of the blind listening research I know about (or have been involved with). If experienced listeners as a group cannot tell reliably tell an Old K Istanbul from an Avedis Zildjian in blind listening tests, I think we need much better experimental design (and analysis) before we start making statements about all Blue Labels versus all reissues in terms of sonic terms. But then I'm a statistician so I would say that wouldn't I?

See: A test of A vs K listening skills

Well, thats about as detailed an answer as I could have hoped for. Thanks for going to the effort!

That proto does look intriguing. Oh to have all the time and money in the world to get my sticks on every interesting cymbal.....

 

[zenghost]

I have a mix of Modern Essentials and Classics. I love having a faster thin 18".

Yes, the 602 ME rides and hats are fabulous IMHO - the crashes are a tad heavy for my tastes at lower volumes - the 602 Classic Thin crashes are nice and help out there for my uses.

 

[Bri6366]

I wonder how it would sound if they made a 602 out of that Turkish bronze? How different would it sound if they followed all the same steps?

Probably not far off from the original Twenty series. They seemed to have all of the classic Paiste characteristics, but were made with Turkish bronze. If they went all out to give them 602 hammering and lathing, they would probably be closer.

 

[michiganice91]

This is a good thread.

For what it's worth, I've had a serious 602 addiction for the past 2 years. I've owned many weights of many sizes from every generation. To my ears, I prefer the newest generation for the most part. I disagree with a statement above about the reissues lacking the "shimmer" that we all talk about. I am not sure if patina affects this or not, but I find the older 602's to be more creamy and more gong-like. The reissues are shimmery and sweet with a consistency that is almost unreal. The addition of the Modern Essentials line adds a subtle darkness and clunkiness in the crashes that the new thinner reissue crashes don't have.

The one weird exception, and I'm sure some people here could speak to this more, is the Blue Labels. I have had fewer of these than the others. I've never had a Blue Label ride, by the way. But the ones I've owned in the past all have a serious coating on them. They are heavy, bright, gong-like, and the most unusual sounding. Some obviously like them. I personally rank them the lowest. I do really love the ink on them though. It would have been a dream come true if the Modern Essentials had the blue ink... They could have at least put the shooting star stamp on them!

The current 602 line, classics and ME, are just perfect to my ear. I hope they stick around for a while. Everyone needs to check these out with their own ear before they disregard them.

Nick, you've made some STRONG statements about cymbals which you admittedly have owned fewer of. I'll preface my response by saying please, send all your blue labels my way sir.

Anyways, I never stated that the re-issue 602's didn't have shimmer, just that it wasn't to the same degree. I personally invite you to bring your new 602's over to my house sometime and compare directly side-by-side for your own benefit. 602 blue and black labels are most definitely superior to these re-issues. The mixing process of alone and the fusion that was created by swissmetal has not been duplicated by the current supplier in Germany that we know of. I am positive the sound proves me right on this.

I'm also not sure what you mean when you say the blue labels have a serious coating on them? And I've literally never heard anyone describe old 602s, or any for that matter, as "creamy and gongy". I personally find them to be perfectly smooth with a nice crystalline shimmering tonality.

I'm not trying to knock the re-issues, I'm just saying that in a side-by-side comparison the vintage 602s win out no contest. My 602 blue label 22" HEAVY is the absolute best ride I have ever played. Unfortunately this isn't available now. And for china types....it's not even comparable. The modern essentials chinas sound like crap compared to any blue or black label.


Some other things to clarify that I have learned this weekend, and I'm sure THIS WILL COME AS A SURPRISE TO MANY OF YOU:

Nearly 100% of the production process of the paiste Twenty and Twenty Custom cymbals were in fact made by Murat Diril in Turkey. I spoke with the man himself and he said almost all of the cymbals were completely lathed and hammered in Turkey and merely stamped with a paiste logo in Switzerland. Yes, this means "made in switzerland" on a Paiste twenty is basically a joke. That being said, they still sound killer to me.

And finally.....the current Paiste masters are almost assuredly being made by Istanbul Mehmet in Turkey. At least this is what I have been led to believe.