Unusual Cymbal Surface Pattern - can anyone identify?

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JazzDoc

JazzDoc

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Here are three images of the surface appearance on one of my ride cymbals, hand crafted by a known cymbalsmith.
The rippled pattern shows up for about 2" from the edge circumferentially.
Otherwise the cymbal sounds terrific!

**Does anyone know what this represents?


Example 1.jpg
Example 2.jpg
Example 3.jpg
 
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that looks like surface wrinkled;
lathe chatter "bounces" into the bronze- down- ; this looks like something is letting "up".
funniest lathe chatter I've ever seen and I've owned a Few Intermediates
It's usually "in a row" not staggered ..
That was a Staggered bounce whew
 
I've noticed this on many naturally finished cymbals made in the Turkish style... Particularly when not lathed very deeply/thoroughly, and particularly Istanbul Agops such as the top sides of Special Edition Jazz cymbals.

I have no proof, but I believe the rippled appearance is an underlaying structure that's laid down in the bronze at the time of casting, and that this does NOT represent "lathe chatter".

What I would like know: Was the intriguing and unique lathing of the discontinued Paiste Dark Energy "Light Dark" cymbals created by lathe chatter (and if so, how could that have been produced so reliably)?
 
To me, the fact that it appears most commonly on lightly lathed surfaces, and less commonly on surfaces that have been subjected to more lathing passes suggests that the rippled surface effect is due the underlaying structure of the bronze as it was cast and/or milled, and is not produced by lathing.

In other words, since more lathing appears to reduce the rippled surface effect, it seems unlikely that it is caused by lathing.

I can't say this for certain as we on the consumer end only see finished products; we don't see what cymbals looked like at earlier stages of milling and lathing, but... that's at least always been my hypothesis on what causes it.
 
peter said:
What I would like know: Was the intriguing and unique lathing of the discontinued Paiste Dark Energy "Light Dark" cymbals created by lathe chatter (and if so, how could that have been produced so reliably)?
Click to expand...

I think those had the ‘Sonic Texture Formula’ applied to them, the same lathing/machining technique as used on the Innovation series, this was part of the last great development before Robert retired (along with the Dimension series, the long awaited permanent replacement for the 2002!), it was called "project fusion".
I do know they used some sort of CNC machine to "mill" the cymbal instead of traditional lathing, it gave the surface a rather rough texture as you can see below:

1655521051194.png
 
type85 said:
I think those had the ‘Sonic Texture Formula’ applied to them, the same lathing/machining technique as used on the Innovation series, this was part of the last great development before Robert retired (along with the Dimension series, the long awaited permanent replacement for the 2002!), it was called "project fusion".
I do know they used some sort of CNC machine to "mill" the cymbal instead of traditional lathing, it gave the surface a rather rough texture as you can see below:

View attachment 566184
Click to expand...
I love that effect! I always imagined it was produced by having a vibrating lathe (the part the cymbal is affixed to while rotating, not the chisel lol).

It looks "serrated"!
 
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well in Old Ks case that era...the lathe tools were getting Kinda shaky ; ) (dull (wobbly lathe (sick donkey ( all thru the era) unlike the prior or the one that followed
 
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peter said:
I love that effect! I always imagined it was produced by having a vibrating lathe (the part the cymbal is affixed to while rotating, not the chisel lol).
Click to expand...

That machining technique was Robert's last great invention (along with bringing back the 602) before he retired in the early 2000's. Toomas fell off a cliff to his death in the summer of 2002 forever changing the company.
After that the company made a right turn: The dimensions and innovations were quickly cancelled around 2003 to make way for the Turkish "Twenty" and all its successors......
 
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I don't remember the Masters Twentys being around that early (seems more like 2008 or '09)... and the Dark Energy Light Darks were discontinued circa 2011 I believe. Is that right about the Twentys?
 
peter said:
I don't remember the Masters Twentys being around that early (seems more like 2008 or '09)... and the Dark Energy Light Darks were discontinued circa 2011 I believe. Is that right about the Twentys?
Click to expand...
2007, and yes, development took quite a while with the debacle with Murat Diril....... :icon_e_surprised:
 
Here's the edge of a 22" Funch:
20220618_152220.jpg

I see this also on a Nolan, a Bettis and a Lauritsen I have. It seems like these ripples most frequently appear near the edge of thin, strongly hammered, larger cymbals. I would guess it is due to the lathing; the outer edge of a large cymbal moves faster, so it might be the same effect as in the milling machine(?) example posted by type85 above.

The Nolan has these ripples also further away from the edge. The ripple pattern is not perfectly radial, but bends in one direction, which could indicate that it comes from the rotation direction of the lathe.

If these were related to the rolling of the cymbal castings, I would expect to see some indication of the rolling directions. The castings are cross-rolled, but of course not along all possible directions.
 
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