Why so many artisan cymbals?

[toddbishop]

Just curious about this-- there's a steady stream of artisan-type cymbals-- Funch, Bettis, etc-- for sale used on the forum.

Also on Reverb-- I see 58 used Funch for sale used vs., say, 8 Cymbal & Gong-- who have been in business ~5 years longer, with many more cymbals in circulation.

Are people buying them just to try out a lot of cymbals, what's happening there?

 

[Rick]

Just curious about this-- there's a steady stream of artisan-type cymbals-- Funch, Bettis, etc-- for sale used on the forum.

Also on Reverb-- I see 58 used Funch for sale used vs., say, 8 Cymbal & Gong-- who have been in business ~5 years longer, with many more cymbals in circulation.

Are people buying them just to try out a lot of cymbals, what's happening there?

Interesting topic. I've purchased 2 Funchs, a Quijano, and one Johan Janicke. One of the Funchs (a 22 OKC) just didn't do it for me. I bought it from Roundsound and I feel that their demo video didn't really convey what it really sounded like in person. I ended up trading it for another cymbal (an Istanbul). The other Funch is a 20" Intermediate Stamp clone that I currently have for sale. It's a wonderful cymbal but just doesn't fit into what I'm doing these days with cymbals. Same with the Johan Janicke (20" old K clone)... absolutely wonderful cymbal but just doesn't fit into the direction I've gone lately. It's up for sale now. And then there's the Quijano. It's a 20" O.A.K. MBU (mini-bell umbrella) that is probably the most beautiful and enjoyable cymbal to play that I've ever played. It's a keeper. I'm using it on an organ trio gig tonight as my secondary ride with a 21" Zildjian K Custom Special Dry (1st gen) as the main ride and a 19" Istanbul Mehmet Sultan Jazz LSR. The only Cymbal & Gong I ever tried was an 18" crash that in the demo sounded like it would be rideable. Unfortunately, when I got it, it was a nice crash but just didn't work for me as a LSR at all... so I returned it.

I suppose there are many reasons why these artisan cymbals end up on the market. Sometimes it's probably just somebody needing the cash... and I think those cymbals tend to bring a higher price.

 

[DrumBob]

It could be that drummers are innately curious creatures who like to learn about and try new gear. Sometimes, when they do, the discover that what they bought isn't suitable for their needs or taste. So, that cool artisan cymbal they bought on impulse goes up on the block as a mistake learned. I've done it too. You start to learn restraint insofar as purchases, and do significant research before spending your $$.

 

[multijd]

Possibly:
1) People are reading the comments about cymbals in general thinking they want that sound and then they get it and realize that’s not what they want. Most likely too much wash not enough high end and stick.
2) There is more availability. Previously these cymbals were hard to acquire now not so tough.
3) Buyers don’t get a chance to try the cymbal until they purchase it. Online sound samples are at the mercy of the audio recording skill of the seller and the playback setup of the potential buyer.
4) There is a general misunderstanding of the sound of cymbals and how they are affected by acoustics, the touch of the player and the sticks they use.

Maybe?

 

[pork]

I don’t know.

 

[Utopian Glints]

I’m mostly avoided the small-shop guys with the exception of Craig Lauritsen. There’s a guy who makes amazing cymbals but not too many of them and people tend to keep them. But buying from Craig is a 1:1 thing where you talk to him and tell him what you’re looking for.

Do we know enough about the sales figures of Cymbal and Gong vs. Funch? I have no idea, but it seems like Funch has been knocking out a lot of cymbals lately and getting a lot of attention. Cymbal and Gong has felt more like a slow burn, small market option to me. But again, I just have no idea what we’re dealing with in terms of numbers.

 

[Izual]

You start to learn restraint insofar as purchases, and do significant research before spending your $$.

This. There are quite a few independent smiths I'd like to try but buying new is a risk because it seems, like a vehicle, the new cymbal unfortunately loses a ton of resale value the minute you drive it off the lot. I mostly buy used and if I don't like something, I resell it and tell my smooth brain that the lost $$ is the cost of 'renting' it..

 

[toddbishop]

Some comments-- I didn't mean to make this about Cymbal & Gong, but that's the comparable area where I have the most experience-- and it's why I was curious.

Do we know enough about the sales figures of Cymbal and Gong vs. Funch? I have no idea, but it seems like Funch has been knocking out a lot of cymbals lately and getting a lot of attention. Cymbal and Gong has felt more like a slow burn, small market option to me. But again, I just have no idea what we’re dealing with in terms of numbers.

I asked Tim @ C&G if he knew how many he's produced since the beginning, he didn't know-- certainly quite a few thousand since the early teens. I've sold ~250 of them since I started dealing them, on my humble scale, around 2018. I assume the solo guys are dealing in much smaller quantities, since they're having to do 100% of the manufacturing themselves-- and I assume are selling just through their own sites?

Cymbal & Gong never had a honeymoon period where cymbal people were buying a lot of them-- they grew up tied to Revival Drums here in Portland, and had a few other stores that were enthusiastic buyers-- eg Round Sound. I don't know to what extent my business has grown them-- I've been able to get them to a bunch of really great German jazz drummers.

Possibly:
1) People are reading the comments about cymbals in general thinking they want that sound and then they get it and realize that’s not what they want. Most likely too much wash not enough high end and stick.
2) There is more availability. Previously these cymbals were hard to acquire now not so tough.
3) Buyers don’t get a chance to try the cymbal until they purchase it. Online sound samples are at the mercy of the audio recording skill of the seller and the playback setup of the potential buyer.
4) There is a general misunderstanding of the sound of cymbals and how they are affected by acoustics, the touch of the player and the sticks they use.

But a lot of my business is just via videos too-- I've had maybe one return in six years, and I know of a couple of people who have resold things.

I'm using it on an organ trio gig tonight

That's what I was wondering, are these players buying them all and reselling them, or cymbal guys, or what?

Curious, how long did you keep those ones you basically liked before selling them?

 

[Sequimite]

I have always presumed that the skyrocketing prices of big cymbal factories has narrowed the gap between them and artisan products and, as the gap narrows, more drummers make the leap. I mean, all things being equal, I love using unique and/or beautiful gear. I've spent extra on many musical things which I thought special or beautiful; just for my own pleasure as the audience, for the most part, is unaware and indifferent.

 

[LukeS]

I am a significant contributor to the buying and selling of independent cymbals on this forum, and I’ll just speak for myself.

I love everything about the experience of getting a new cymbal, learning about it, seeing how it inspires my playing, or doesn’t, and then more often than not selling or trading it for something else. It’s a hobby of sound exploration. I’m sure a lot of people would say that whole endeavor is totally irrelevant to becoming a better drummer and making music, and for the most part I would agree. However throughout the process I have come across some true “keepers” that I feel most inspired by, or are most appropriate for my playing opportunities.

I have found that I connect with Lauritsen, Francis, Nolan and Simpson cymbals moreso than other makers and brands. If that weren’t the case, I’d be doing the same thing with Zildjians or whatever else (as I was before I got into independents).

Honestly, a vanishingly small percentage of cymbals I sell on the forum are sold because I don’t like them, or they are deficient for my purposes. It’s really just a fun thing that I’m lucky enough to be able to afford to do, and it does probably help my put in a little extra time in the practice room, just vibing with combinations of cymbals.

At some point in the near future I intend to stop and lock down my roster, and find another hobby.

There may also be a correlation between people who like sampling a bunch of cymbals, or learning about cymbals through trading, buying and selling, and using independent cymbals. By contrast, I’m not very curious about snares, have 2 brand name ones, and will probably keep them forever. I imagine that if I were more curious about snares I’d like to explore smaller companies or independent makers, since often makers are more transparent or approachable about their products.

 

[pork]

I don’t think most of the indies are making a ton of cymbals, with the exception of Paul Francis, who is absolutely cranking them out.

I’ve bought a bunch of indie cymbals in the last year. I’m trying to sell one now, but that’s the only one I’m ready to part with, and only because I decided I don’t want more than one flat ride. But I don’t know if there are a higher percentage of used indie cymbals sold than cymbals made by bigger operations.

There are always a ton of Funchs on Reverb. Lauritsens don’t really hang around for very long though (unless they’re priced abnormally high). So you can’t paint them all with the same brush.

 

[toddbishop]

I have always presumed that the skyrocketing prices of big cymbal factories has narrowed the gap between them and artisan products and, as the gap narrows, more drummers make the leap. I mean, all things being equal, I love using unique and/or beautiful gear. I've spent extra on many musical things which I thought special or beautiful; just for my own pleasure as the audience, for the most part, is unaware and indifferent.

I understand why someone would buy them, I was just wondering about the disproportional numbers of them turning up used— that makes sense, though re: prices compared to major manufacturers.

 

[cdrummer]

I'm with LukeS in terms of wanting to try these out of curiosity and for the purpose of exploration. At this level of craftsmanship, there are very few lemons and most of these are beautiful instruments, so the most frequent reason I sell is that they don't fit into any of my existing setups. Sure, I could create yet another set around one of these (and was really tempted with a Funch 22 I had for a while) but I have 4 sets of jazz cymbals at this point and that's already 3 too many...

 

[Rick]

Some comments-- I didn't mean to make this about Cymbal & Gong, but that's the comparable area where I have the most experience-- and it's why I was curious.



I asked Tim @ C&G if he knew how many he's produced since the beginning, he didn't know-- certainly quite a few thousand since the early teens. I've sold ~250 of them since I started dealing them, on my humble scale, around 2018. I assume the solo guys are dealing in much smaller quantities, since they're having to do 100% of the manufacturing themselves-- and I assume are selling just through their own sites?

Cymbal & Gong never had a honeymoon period where cymbal people were buying a lot of them-- they grew up tied to Revival Drums here in Portland, and had a few other stores that were enthusiastic buyers-- eg Round Sound. I don't know to what extent my business has grown them-- I've been able to get them to a bunch of really great German jazz drummers.



But a lot of my business is just via videos too-- I've had maybe one return in six years, and I know of a couple of people who have resold things.



That's what I was wondering, are these players buying them all and reselling them, or cymbal guys, or what?

Curious, how long did you keep those ones you basically liked before selling them?

I've had that 20" Funch about 1 1/2 years. I've used it on a few gigs (as a main ride and a LSR) and it sounded great in the mix both ways. I've just got other cymbals now that I like better in those roles. My philosophy is if I'm not going to play it, I sell it so someone else can. I had the 22" Funch about a year before I traded it. I used it a couple of times on gigs but it just didn't fit in. I've had the Johan Janicke right at a year. I recently acquired some new cymbals and went a little different direction. The Janicke is a really special cymbal, I think. So I definitely want it to go somewhere where it will be loved and played!

From what I've seen on Reverb, it looks to me like it's a combination of individual drummers and cymbal sellers that are selling these artisan cymbals.

 

[HalldorL]

What I don’t get is the “K clone”, “Nefertiti”, Elvin clone” fashion that’s going on. I see so many cymbal makers trying to emulate some sound. Personally it kills my interest. Probably it’s good business though.

 

[toddbishop]

What I don’t get is the “K clone”, “Nefertiti”, Elvin clone” fashion that’s going on.

K clone is kind of redundant, it seems kind of redundant, most handmade cymbals are going to be in that ballpark, in degrees-- and even if they're not all equally good at it.

Those other things have become a standard even among people who have never listened to a Tony Williams or Elvin Jones record. I do think being that specific about it sets them up for people to be disappointed when the thing doesn't sound like the record.

I see so many cymbal makers trying to emulate some sound. Personally it kills my interest.

Why is that, what are you looking for that's different from that?

 

[HalldorL]

Why is that, what are you looking for that's different from that?

What I meant is the way they are presented turns me off. I’m not looking for anything. I just find this “old K this or that” trend weird.

 

[ThomasL]

A lot of the people who buy cymbals from the independent cymbal smiths tend to be the "worst cymbalholics" (been there, done that). Some flip a lot and keep a few, while others seem to be in an infinite buying-selling loop.

When its comes to Funch, it might also be him playing with a click grip in the videos that leads people into buy too thin/washy cymbals.

 

[Utopian Glints]

To a degree, I’d defend the use of guy’s names to categorize cymbal sounds. Anyone who’s a cymbal nerd knows the difference between Elvin’s classic sounds and Tony’s classic sounds, right? Like, these names and a bunch of others are ALL evocative of a certain kind of thing. But you can never have a cymbal that sounds EXACTLY like that guy because of the very obvious other factors that go into making a particular sound.

But if a guy says, “This one’s 60s Elvin-ish” or “this one sounds like Jack’s 80s Istanbuls” or whatever, that gives me a sense of the kind of sonic space it’ll occupy. And that’s helpful.

 

[curly]

What I don’t get is the “K clone”, “Nefertiti”, Elvin clone” fashion that’s going on. I see so many cymbal makers trying to emulate some sound. Personally it kills my interest. Probably it’s good business though.

Marketing. Buyers eyes > ears. Over simplistic but I think that’s a piece of it.