Why so many artisan cymbals?

[nlabodin]

To a degree, I’d defend the use of guy’s names to categorize cymbal sounds. Anyone who’s a cymbal nerd knows the difference between Elvin’s classic sounds and Tony’s classic sounds, right? Like, these names and a bunch of others are ALL evocative of a certain kind of thing. But you can never have a cymbal that sounds EXACTLY like that guy because of the very obvious other factors that go into making a particular sound.

But if a guy says, “This one’s 60s Elvin-ish” or “this one sounds like Jack’s 80s Istanbuls” or whatever, that gives me a sense of the kind of sonic space it’ll occupy. And that’s helpful.

Especially since a lot of these cymbalsmiths don't really have model names to differentiate between cymbals. Some people want some kind of easy descriptor for the sound than the subjective ones used (Airy, woody, bright, dark)

 

[Utopian Glints]

Marketing. Buyers eyes > ears. Over simplistic but I think that’s a piece of it.

I agree. But I don’t think that’s inherently bad. Like, Funch will put up videos of six “Elvin” cymbals and they all sound different but they’re also all still in a family or within a range of sounds. That feels honest to me.

I have a cymbal that Craig Lauritsen made that’s one of his attempts to copy a Spizzichino Elvin tribute. And if you’re a serious, long-time cymbal nerd, you can hear that cymbal in your head without ever even seeing a video of it, right? But that’s not even what I asked for— I gave Craig a description without ever mentioning Elvin and this was how he interpreted what I was asking for. And he was right! But the thing is, I use that cymbal all the time and I’m NEVER thinking, “This is making me sound like Elvin.” But I wanted something kinda nasty that’d sound good with a couple rivets in it and was still OK in a piano trio.

 

[toddbishop]

A lot of the people who buy cymbals from the independent cymbal smiths tend to be the "worst cymbalholics" (been there, done that). Some flip a lot and keep a few, while others seem to be in an infinite buying-selling loop.

I've had an interesting experience with that since I started playing, and selling, Cymbal & Gong-- like I expect that to happen. Cymbals are morishly fascinating, once somebody starts looking at them, they want to keep finding the next fascinating thing, and there are always more coming.

But weirdly, I have gotten less acquisitive. I've had my core set for ~6-8 years and am basically fine. I probably don't even have the best ones for myself. I have access to all of them I could possibly want, and I really only get something when I need a role filled. That seems to be the experience of many of the players buying them-- they just use them. Isn't the greatest for sales, I think it says something good for the integrity of the instruments! Or maybe it's just a different community of people buying them, idk.

 

[toddbishop]

What I meant is the way they are presented turns me off. I’m not looking for anything. I just find this “old K this or that” trend weird.

It bothers me when the cymbal they've attached it to is in no way "K like"-- there was a Polish shop that came up recently that was like that, doing some really strange experimental stuff.

I'm actually surprised some guys haven't gotten a letter from the current owners of the K trademark. I've probably used "602 like" or "K like" in my copy somewhere, but you're really not supposed to do it....

To a degree, I’d defend the use of guy’s names to categorize cymbal sounds. Anyone who’s a cymbal nerd knows the difference between Elvin’s classic sounds and Tony’s classic sounds, right? Like, these names and a bunch of others are ALL evocative of a certain kind of thing. But you can never have a cymbal that sounds EXACTLY like that guy because of the very obvious other factors that go into making a particular sound.

But if a guy says, “This one’s 60s Elvin-ish” or “this one sounds like Jack’s 80s Istanbuls” or whatever, that gives me a sense of the kind of sonic space it’ll occupy. And that’s helpful.

I don't even know what people are thinking with "Elvin", he used a lot of different things. I'd be thinking Real McCoy-- I'd put that in the description of the individual cymbal if it had something like that quality. Like I occasionally get a cymbal in that has a vibe like Blakey's 20 on Indestructible.

Doing a whole series named after, and sort of based on something specific, like a particular record, but the cymbals themselves are only loosely in that category of sound-- that seems ultimately not very supportable. You listen to a few and realize it means "OK, a jazz 22", really not the specific vibe you had in mind based on the series name.

 

[HalldorL]

I think it was English drummer Bob Henrit that wrote an article for Rhythm magazine I used to subscribe to. He mentioned how he loved Art Blakey’s ride cymbal sound. He saw him live at Ronnie Scott’s in London and there it was, the Blakey sound. He managed
to catch him very briefly after the show and asked what that ride cymbal was and Blakey replied: “No idea, it’s some rental sh!t”

 

[kallen49]

I think it was English drummer Bob Henrit that wrote an article for Rhythm magazine I used to subscribe to. He mentioned how he loved Art Blakey’s ride cymbal sound. He saw him live at Ronnie Scott’s in London and there it was, the Blakey sound. He managed
to catch him very briefly after the show and asked what that ride cymbal was and Blakey replied: “No idea, it’s some rental sh!t”

another proof that it's not the cymbal, (or drum), it's the player that makes it sound great.

 

[kallen49]

Why so many artisans? Why not? Nice to have diverse options in a world where more and more large corporations swallow successful companies.

I used the same four Zildjian cymbals for 2 years, six nights a week, then on weekends for the next 25 years, now I can afford to explore.

My friend Paul from Udrum was selling Mehteran cymbals, so I bought a new 21" jazz ride & 19" effects cymbal, made in Turkey.
Like' em, considerably less expensive than any of the big 4 would cost for similar, yup, the depreciation will be steep, maybe not for Lauritsen, but for the Mehteran I'd be lucky get half what I paid so I'm keeping them.

My Paiste 2002's will probably hold value better than my recent used Sabian Complex set, Sabian seems to have produced a lot of them, dark cymbals being so popular these days.
I have a set of 2002's and the Sabian complex set, the 2 Mehterans and a few old Zildjians, I'm done buying cymbals now. (Still need some better mics...)

 

[toddbishop]

Why so many artisans? Why not? Nice to have diverse options in a world where more and more large corporations swallow successful companies.

I was wondering why I see more of those kinds of cymbals for sale used compared to some other small brands, I'm very happy that there are a lot of people making cymbals.

My friend Paul from Udrum was selling Mehteran cymbals, so I bought a new 21" jazz ride & 19" effects cymbal, made in Turkey.
Like' em, considerably less expensive than any of the big 4 would cost for similar, yup, the depreciation will be steep, maybe not for Lauritsen, but for the Mehteran I'd be lucky get half what I paid so I'm keeping them.

I expected that phenomenon, but haven't noticed it with Cymbal & Gong. There are so few of them turning up used they're mostly priced about 10-15% less than MAP, with exceptions.

 

[dustjacket]

Some comments-- I didn't mean to make this about Cymbal & Gong, but that's the comparable area where I have the most experience-- and it's why I was curious.



I asked Tim @ C&G if he knew how many he's produced since the beginning, he didn't know-- certainly quite a few thousand since the early teens. I've sold ~250 of them since I started dealing them, on my humble scale, around 2018. I assume the solo guys are dealing in much smaller quantities, since they're having to do 100% of the manufacturing themselves-- and I assume are selling just through their own sites?

Cymbal & Gong never had a honeymoon period where cymbal people were buying a lot of them-- they grew up tied to Revival Drums here in Portland, and had a few other stores that were enthusiastic buyers-- eg Round Sound. I don't know to what extent my business has grown them-- I've been able to get them to a bunch of really great German jazz drummers.



But a lot of my business is just via videos too-- I've had maybe one return in six years, and I know of a couple of people who have resold things.



That's what I was wondering, are these players buying them all and reselling them, or cymbal guys, or what?

Curious, how long did you keep those ones you basically liked before selling them?

This verged on humble bragging, but happy you clarified. Reason? Instagram. That’s your answer.

 

[bobsyouruncle]

When its comes to Funch, it might also be him playing with a click grip in the videos that leads people into buy too thin/washy cymbals.

I heard a cymbal I liked on Round Sound, so I called the guy to ask what stick he used. And he told me he was using the Erskine Ride Stick. ( that makes everything sound good)

And I knew right away I was never gonna buy a cymbal from him.

 

[Rick]

I heard a cymbal I liked on Round Sound, so I called the guy to ask what stick he used. And he told me he was using the Erskine Ride Stick. ( that makes everything sound good)

And I knew right away I was never gonna buy a cymbal from him.

I've bought a couple of cymbals from him. I don't have either of them anymore. They weren't bad, but they didn't sound like the demo he recorded in that padded cell of his. lol

 

[bobsyouruncle]

I've bought a couple of cymbals from him. I don't have either of them anymore. They weren't bad, but they didn't sound like the demo he recorded in that padded cell of his. lol

Btw.. your 20 sounds great. I had never heard of that Cymbal Smith, or maybe only heard him tangentially. But I definitely like that cymbal. If I didn't have three nice 20 inch K's I might consider it.

 

[Rick]

Btw.. your 20 sounds great. I had never heard of that Cymbal Smith, or maybe only heard him tangentially. But I definitely like that cymbal. If I didn't have three nice 20 inch K's I might consider it.

Thanks! I actually just sold it to a DFO'er! It's on its way now. I'm glad it's going to a good home!

 

[pork]

I heard a cymbal I liked on Round Sound, so I called the guy to ask what stick he used. And he told me he was using the Erskine Ride Stick. ( that makes everything sound good)

And I knew right away I was never gonna buy a cymbal from him.

This is good to know. Thanks for the heads up. On the flip side, maybe cymbals that sound sort of dry aren’t as dry as they would be with a more normal stick. His videos sound weird. I am leery about buying a cymbal from him.

 

[owr]

Different community of people buying is right - I would guess.

Folks chasing the independents - probably a bit more neurotic all things equal chasing a very nuanced sound, or just having fun exploring (not insulting them - I’m one of them).

Folks buying a lesser known Turkish brand - trying to get a certain vibe at the most bang for the buck. Why buy a Cymbal and Gong over an Agop? Less known, worse resale value I presume, less endorsers to fire that emulation tick we all have to varying degrees. But if you want the Turkish sound and want to optimize on cost and are not too particular about it? Seems like a good call. Note I’m not saying one is better than the other - I really wouldn’t know. Never owned a Cymbal and Gong (but I own double digit numbers of independents…)

Point being - if more Funch are up for resale than C&G, I think that has much more to do with the buyers than the cymbals.

I've had an interesting experience with that since I started playing, and selling, Cymbal & Gong-- like I expect that to happen. Cymbals are morishly fascinating, once somebody starts looking at them, they want to keep finding the next fascinating thing, and there are always more coming.

But weirdly, I have gotten less acquisitive. I've had my core set for ~6-8 years and am basically fine. I probably don't even have the best ones for myself. I have access to all of them I could possibly want, and I really only get something when I need a role filled. That seems to be the experience of many of the players buying them-- they just use them. Isn't the greatest for sales, I think it says something good for the integrity of the instruments! Or maybe it's just a different community of people buying them, idk.

 

[toddbishop]

he told me he was using the Erskine Ride Stick. ( that makes everything sound good)

Stick borne of the desperation of the 80s, trying to make all those bad heavy mediums sound like anything. Those were rough times-- that's when people started using Boleros on the drums.

Different community of people buying is right - I would guess.

Folks chasing the independents - probably a bit more neurotic all things equal chasing a very nuanced sound, or just having fun exploring (not insulting them - I’m one of them).

Folks buying a lesser known Turkish brand - trying to get a certain vibe at the most bang for the buck. Why buy a Cymbal and Gong over an Agop? Less known, worse resale value I presume, less endorsers to fire that emulation tick we all have to varying degrees. But if you want the Turkish sound and want to optimize on cost and are not too particular about it? Seems like a good call. Note I’m not saying one is better than the other - I really wouldn’t know. Never owned a Cymbal and Gong (but I own double digit numbers of independents…)

Cymbal & Gong is an American brand, manufactured in Turkey, to be clear-- it's really not a typical Turkish product. Agop is the closest, but they are really not the same thing.

Usually not random people buying them from me, or buying them generally, based on that kind of logic. C&G has a close relationship with Revival Drums, which has a certain aesthetic, partly to do with vintage gear and sounds, so you're getting people playing them in the store there and liking them. They've built up a little culture there. Other stores selling them do a similar thing, making themselves into a little drummer mecca, and they come to the attention of those communities that way.

My customers are generally serious players or students who are very particular indeed-- usually I bring them to them, they play them, and they like what they hear more than their other options. Others are people who follow my CRUISE SHIP DRUMMER! site, with whom I've built up some trust that I know what a good cymbal is.

As I mentioned before resale value is quite solid, usually 10-15% below MAP.

Point being - if more Funch are up for resale than C&G, I think that has much more to do with the buyers than the cymbals.

Sure, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[owr]

Thanks for sharing Todd - very cool that there is a Portland and extended scene around this brand. I’m not in the know (please don’t pull me in, I have enough itches to scratch there!)

That’s my favorite aspect to this whole drum/cymbal craftsmen renaissance that is going on these days, the communities springing up around each. Maybe we’re at risk of getting a bit too tribal about it, but it’s one of the unexpected silver linings to our over connected world.

Stick borne of the desperation of the 80s, trying to make all those bad heavy mediums sound like anything. Those were rough times-- that's when people started using Boleros on the drums.



Cymbal & Gong is an American brand, manufactured in Turkey, to be clear-- it's really not a typical Turkish product. Agop is the closest, but they are really not the same thing.

Usually not random people buying them from me, or buying them generally, based on that kind of logic. C&G has a close relationship with Revival Drums, which has a certain aesthetic, partly to do with vintage gear and sounds, so you're getting people playing them in the store there and liking them. They've built up a little culture there. Other stores selling them do a similar thing, making themselves into a little drummer mecca, and they come to the attention of those communities that way.

My customers are generally serious players or students who are very particular indeed-- usually I bring them to them, they play them, and they like what they hear more than their other options. Others are people who follow my CRUISE SHIP DRUMMER! site, with whom I've built up some trust that I know what a good cymbal is.

As I mentioned before resale value is quite solid, usually 10-15% below MAP.



Sure, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[MAJN]

I heard a cymbal I liked on Round Sound, so I called the guy to ask what stick he used. And he told me he was using the Erskine Ride Stick. ( that makes everything sound good)

And I knew right away I was never gonna buy a cymbal from him.

It's funny. I recently bought my Bosphorus Traditional 17" Crash from Round Sound based on the video and then bought a pair of Erskine Ride sticks today because of your comment. The cymbal is exactly what I was hoping for and has been agreeable with any stick I've thrown at it. I wouldn't hesitate buying again from Round Sound based on my experience.

 

[bobsyouruncle]

It's funny. I recently bought my Bosphorus Traditional 17" Crash from Round Sound based on the video and then bought a pair of Erskine Ride sticks today because of your comment. The cymbal is exactly what I was hoping for and has been agreeable with any stick I've thrown at it. I wouldn't hesitate buying again from Round Sound based on my experience.

That's cool. I just can't trust someone's touch and stick anymore. Not just him... But the Ride Stick is a thing, same as a guy demo-ing with a pair of Boleros

 

[zenstat]

I came across this previous discussion (which Todd posted in) by accident while following up something else.

A tough comment on modern Turkish Cymbals

I’ve noticed something over the years; Turkish cymbals are disproportionately chosen to sell by drummers on this website and others like it. When you compare the number of them sold with Zildjians, Paiste, Sabian et al, they’re a much smaller percentage of the total market. And yet those are...

www.drumforum.org

To be perfectly frank I'm not impressed with the data collection, modelling, nor analysis regarding the prevalence of used artisan cymbals for sale on DFO and associated explanations. But that's just me I'm sure