Why so many artisan cymbals?

[Rick]

It's funny. I recently bought my Bosphorus Traditional 17" Crash from Round Sound based on the video and then bought a pair of Erskine Ride sticks today because of your comment. The cymbal is exactly what I was hoping for and has been agreeable with any stick I've thrown at it. I wouldn't hesitate buying again from Round Sound based on my experience.

I agree with you and didn't mean to trash them earlier. They have some great cymbals! I'm just really trying to say that, if I were to consider another cymbal from them, I have to factor in that the room in which he is recording the demo seems to hide a lot of the wash and accentuates the stick (based on my limited 2 cymbal experience with them). What I would do is listen to other demos from other sources of the same model to get a better idea of the stick/wash ratio and the ballpark of what the cymbal might sound like in person. But I wouldn't hesitate to buy from Round Sound as long as I've done my homework and it's a cymbal I really want.

 

[smittyboy63]

Are people buying them just to try out a lot of cymbals, what's happening there?

I would think part of it also has to do with folks buying things online before actually "hearing" their new toy, and then when they get it, it's like, "I don't like the way this sounds".

 

[GreezyBeats]

Everyone is trying to match the ‘inner cymbal voice’ they hear in their heads. None may match it exactly, thus the search for the match. If you had the match, then and only then would it be an absolute extension of self. So it’s a search for self in a material object, which is an existential crisis of the next order!

…. And we enjoy it.

 

[Rick]

Everyone is trying to match the ‘inner cymbal voice’ they hear in their heads. None may match it exactly, thus the search for the match. If you had the match, then and only then would it be an absolute extension of self. So it’s a search for self in a material object, which is an existential crisis of the next order!

…. And we enjoy it.

Next time I buy a cymbal I'm going to tell my wife the voices in my head told me to do it...

 

[sumskilz]

Why buy a Cymbal and Gong over an Agop? Less known, worse resale value I presume, less endorsers to fire that emulation tick we all have to varying degrees. But if you want the Turkish sound and want to optimize on cost and are not too particular about it? Seems like a good call. Note I’m not saying one is better than the other - I really wouldn’t know. Never owned a Cymbal and Gong (but I own double digit numbers of independents…)

Cymbal & Gong sound fairly different to me than Agop. The Holy Grail cymbals have hand hammered complexity, but they have a high end sizzle that I never hear in Agop cymbals. To me, Agop cymbals have more of a soft top end. I hear a similar difference between the Bosphorus Traditional series and the Agop Traditional series, in that the Bosphorus Traditionals have more sizzle in the high end.

It's funny. I recently bought my Bosphorus Traditional 17" Crash from Round Sound based on the video and then bought a pair of Erskine Ride sticks today because of your comment. The cymbal is exactly what I was hoping for and has been agreeable with any stick I've thrown at it. I wouldn't hesitate buying again from Round Sound based on my experience.

I also have had only good experiences with Round Sound. The first cymbal I bought sounded like the demo, but in a different room.

That said, I think it's useful to get a sense of what a particular retailer's demo room (and possibly signal chain) does to the sound of cymbals. After buying one cymbal from Round Sound, it's easier for me to predict how others will sound in my room. Short of that, you can listen to a lot of a particular retailer's demos ahead of time to get a sense, focusing on familiar and more consistent models.

 

[toddbishop]

Cymbal & Gong sound fairly different to me than Agop. The Holy Grail cymbals have hand hammered complexity, but they have a high end sizzle that I never hear in Agop cymbals. To me, Agop cymbals have more of a soft top end. I hear a similar difference between the Bosphorus Traditional series and the Agop Traditional series, in that the Bosphorus Traditionals have more sizzle in the high end.

That could be-- my feeling is that mainly Agop are darker than normal, but it amounts to the same thing.

I generally haven't been fond of the Bos Traditionals, which seemed very pronounced that way-- I may just be thinking of the medium weight ones, though.

 

[toddbishop]

Everyone is trying to match the ‘inner cymbal voice’ they hear in their heads. None may match it exactly, thus the search for the match.

Sure. It's actually unsettling to me that I stopped feeling the need to keep looking, I've been using the same stuff for 5-7 years and it's just my voice. I didn't even take that much care picking my own ones out.

Tim Ennis was telling about an endorser who got his cymbals, maybe 8-9 years ago, Tim asked him if he needed anything, and he was like no, I'm good. He's been taking the same stuff out every night for years-- which is the way it's supposed to work, imo.

 

[Rick]

Sure. It's actually unsettling to me that I stopped feeling the need to keep looking, I've been using the same stuff for 5-7 years and it's just my voice. I didn't even take that much care picking my own ones out.

Tim Ennis was telling about an endorser who got his cymbals, maybe 8-9 years ago, Tim asked him if he needed anything, and he was like no, I'm good. He's been taking the same stuff out every night for years-- which is the way it's supposed to work, imo.

I think I'm just about there. For the first ~30 years of my playing, I never really paid much attention to cymbals. My cymbals were my cymbals... a set of late 1970's Zildjians and one Paiste. I would hear cymbals that I thought sounded really good, but I didn't know why. Mine were okay but I was never really in love with them. It was only about 10 years ago that I started branching out. It started innocently enough with a new set of hats. And that provided the spark that started a 10 year odyssey of learning about cymbals and experimenting with what I like and what I don't like. It's been an expensive journey but I think I'm finally getting to the point where I can go back for the most part to where "my cymbals are my cymbals." lol I've still got about 4 or 5 to sell. I just bought one (a Quijano) that I consider one of the last pieces of the puzzle. That's going to leave me with enough cymbals to mix and match for particular gigs and certain groupings that work really well together. About 12 to 14 cymbals total is where I think I'm going to end up. The keepers are currently a mix of Zildjians and Istanbuls with two Quijanos, two Cymbal Craftsman, and one Timothy Roberts mod..

 

[pork]

I was similar. I used the same cymbals for about 20 years. Over 20 in the case of a few cymbals. I remember Lewis Nash telling me that he used the same cymbals on every gig because it gave him an identifiable sound (paraphrased). I took that to heart and used the same cymbals for two decades. Meanwhile, Lewis changed cymbal brands twice in that time lol. But now I’m having a lot of fun mixing and matching for different gigs. And it’s making practicing more fun too. So the artisan cymbal thing has been worth it for me, if for no other reason that it is spicing up something that had been the same for 20 years. It wasn’t bad, just the same thing over and over (note to self: don’t say any of this to my wife).

 

[LukeS]

Just chiming in to say I’ve also had great experiences with Round Sound, and found the sound files to be about as representative as any other online seller - that is, pretty good. I also use the Erskine Ride as my main stick so maybe that’s a factor. Jason the proprietor is a good guy and gives reasonable rates for trade ins.

 

[toddbishop]

I've never heard a bad word about them. I wouldn't consider using that stick to be deceptive-- not any more than if the guy making the video had a better touch on a ride cymbal than me. Probably it gives any heavier cymbals a shot at sounding their best.

 

[toddbishop]

I was similar. I used the same cymbals for about 20 years. Over 20 in the case of a few cymbals. I remember Lewis Nash telling me that he used the same cymbals on every gig because it gave him an identifiable sound (paraphrased). I took that to heart and used the same cymbals for two decades. Meanwhile, Lewis changed cymbal brands twice in that time lol.

But yeah, you get that 20" A Paul Motian had since Bill Evans days, Mel Lewis's 20. I read on Jim Black's site years ago that he uses the same Sonor Hilite set on all his recordings, that I saw him play several times in the 90s.

It's a weird balance, usually you don't get the exact cymbal of your dreams, it's usually enough to put it over the hump for you to go with it. Then you go with it long enough that it becomes your voice. People sometimes get lucky with early purchases.

 

[Bronzepie]

Just curious about this-- there's a steady stream of artisan-type cymbals-- Funch, Bettis, etc-- for sale used on the forum.

Also on Reverb-- I see 58 used Funch for sale used vs., say, 8 Cymbal & Gong-- who have been in business ~5 years longer, with many more cymbals in circulation.

Are people buying them just to try out a lot of cymbals, what's happening there?

I have one foot planted in this part of the cymbal world with BW Cymbals. How it’s recorded is a major component, followed by stick used. Then factor in that these artisan cymbals are commonly thinner than what most folks play in real world application, with the possible exception being jazz centric players. These aren’t workhorse type cymbals. When recorded with a close mic, they can sound wonderful and exotic, but disappoint when played in another environment like a bandstand.

I’ve had more success with using an aux mic on my phone, it’s less slick and more relatable. Plus lots of correspondence before the sale is made and personal demos with their stick of choice. This, and slightly heavier weights has helped keep me out of the secondhand market thankfully. You have to contact me to buy a cymbal, no impulsive “buy it now” purchases…less buyers remorse albeit a bit more hassle.

 

[toddbishop]

I have one foot planted in this part of the cymbal world with BW Cymbals. How it’s recorded is a major component, followed by stick used. Then factor in that these artisan cymbals are commonly thinner than what most folks play in real world application, with the possible exception being jazz centric players. These aren’t workhorse type cymbals. When recorded with a close mic, they can sound wonderful and exotic, but disappoint when played in another environment like a bandstand.

I think that was the cause of a lot of Cymbals Only things getting resold-- he was special ordering a lot of super thin stuff that sounded amazing on the site, that weren't really usable instruments. I got a couple of those by accident via ebay.

I’ve had more success with using an aux mic on my phone, it’s less slick and more relatable.

It is harder if the recording is too good-- like I have never heard a ping ride that sounds like:

All of them, always, sound like:

Plus lots of correspondence before the sale is made and personal demos with their stick of choice. This, and slightly heavier weights has helped keep me out of the secondhand market thankfully. You have to contact me to buy a cymbal, no impulsive “buy it now” purchases…less buyers remorse albeit a bit more hassle.

I imagine it has helped Cymbal & Gong that most purchases are in person, or via my site, which-- I think I've built up some credibility with the people who come to me-- they know they'll get a playable cymbal.

 

[Bronzepie]

Fine examples you posted. I think the best audio/video files that would qualify as “slick” but were on point were Bettis’s. My purchase sounded exactly like the video I bought off eBay back in the day. I’ve discovered that experienced ears can decipher an iPhone w/mic set up (MV88 plus) and extrapolate what they need to know. It’s a bit lacking but familiar enough for a point of reference and not misleading. So far it’s working as far as I can tell.

Having done enough drum shows, I’ve also learned that many on the search haven’t done enough homework before grail shopping and get distracted once given several options. Online shopping complicates the process. Going back to Funch, once a package is shipped overseas, it ain’t getting returned, it’s going on eBay if it’s not the one.