Zildjian Stamp ID

[jdrumma]

Hi all.

Here is yet another request to identify a Zildjian stamp. I did my own checking and think this may be a late 50's small stamp SSB.

It is a 20" and the pictures are all I have. Going to check it out tomorrow but trying to do my due diligence.

Am I correct or way off? Trying to learn as I go so any confirmation or correction is appreciated. Thank you!

 

[zenstat]

Yes late 50s small stamp, the SSB variety. The bell fine lathing is consistent with that era. The lathing we can see on the bow is consistent with that era too. The look of the bow is consistent with what Quincy Drop Hammering leaves behind when doing preliminary shaping. If that's a 20" cymbal the bell looks like the Medium Cup which is the bell used on almost all 20" cymbals from the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, etc. It would be interesting to see the hammering and lathing on the bottom but what really matters is how it sounds to you.

 

[jdrumma]

Perfect. Thank you. And I agree. The sound is what matters.

Your expertise is appreciated.

Jim

 

[mattr]

Looks like nice concentric rows of small top-side hammering… that’s late 1960s auto-hammers.

 

[jdrumma]

Interesting. I don't see the three dots so I didn't consider that era. I do know that stamps alone cannot guarantee a specific year, but I am surprised by this. I am by no means an expert (barely a novice) so what am I missing? Thanks!

 

[zenstat]

Interesting. I don't see the three dots so I didn't consider that era. I do know that stamps alone cannot guarantee a specific year, but I am surprised by this. I am by no means an expert (barely a novice) so what am I missing? Thanks!

View attachment 646499

What you and I are both missing is the evidence and the detailed definitions being used by mattr. I can add my evidence and detailed definitions in this thread and I'm sure we will all learn some new things. Without going into the full detail just yet (I'm in the middle of something else) I would say that the top photo of that cymbal does show concentric ring hammering, but so do enough other cymbals produced in the second half of the 1950s. I believe the style of hammering on the cymbal you are interested in is different from the auto advance top hammering we see well post 1950s. I've tried to show the hammering on the photo. In from the circle is one such ring which I've put three dots on where the hammer marks are. Outside the circle are a few more rings, and I've put dots on one of those. Hopefully you can see what I'm talking about by looking at this annotated version:

I distinguish this style of top hammering from what I believe is the auto advance top hammering which came later. When I look at the one you posted I don't think the even gaps between hammer blows continue in other areas of the cymbal. This is what I think of as later auto advance hammering.

[coming later when I reclocate that directory]

The later top hammering is more sparse, and also more even in the gap distances between hammer blows.

The photo you posted of the cymbal you are interested in isn't good enough resolution for me to go much further with, although it does show the fine tonal groove lathing on the bell which is seldom found after 1950, until it reappeared in modern times with cymbals like the Arman series. There are a number of other attributes which we will need to discuss: how uniform in size are the tonal grooves across the bow (top and bottom), carbide tipped tools, oven crust left around the mounting hole on the top and bottom sides, and what hammering is found on the bottom side of the cymbal. What the visible hammering on the bottom would do is full in the picture. But we don't have that.

We're going to get in much deeper the you need to, just to decide if that cymbal is worth a listen. It looks to me like a late 50s cymbal and is worth a listen. And it's the listening that will matter. But even if it is a later 60s produced cymbal which mysteriously received a late 50s Small Stamp trademark...later 60s cymbals can sound nice too.

 

[jptrickster]

I’d lean towards 50’s build especially the fine bell lathing and spreading wider at the bridge as it was more machined and consistent in the 60’s

 

[zenstat]

While I'm still retrieving my examples of what I presume is auto advance top only hammering, here is an example of a cymbal which I happened to come across. 21" and 2660g. I was in the middle of sorting out my 21" holdings which is why I noticed this one.

Is it second half of the 1950s, or late 1960s early 1970s? What do you see? Decide before you see the bottom please.

The bottom view tells me second half of the 1950s or early 1960s. What do you see?

What trademark do you predict this one will have?

 

[jdrumma]

I have to say whatever it is I find this information very interesting!

I think I have to get this. Unless it sounds awful (which I doubt) it's worth it just to see some more detail.

Thank you all so much!

 

[jptrickster]

While I'm still retrieving my examples of what I presume is auto advance top only hammering, here is an example of a cymbal which I happened to come across. 21" and 2660g. I was in the middle of sorting out my 21" holdings which is why I noticed this one.

View attachment 646545

Is it second half of the 1950s, or late 1960s early 1970s? What do you see? Decide before you see the bottom please.

The bottom view tells me second half of the 1950s or early 1960s. What do you see?

View attachment 646546

What trademark do you predict this one will have?

The umbrella bow is silently screaming 50’s. I was not surprised to see the large stamp but happy my gut instincts are still somewhat reliable !

 

[zenstat]

And a second 21" cymbal weighing 2380g.

I see some traces of concentric ring hammering on the top.

Or are they something else?

The bottom view doesn't have obvious hammering like the heavier one.

This cymbal is wearing the L1 (aka block stamp, Hartrick Large Stamp Type I) which is thought have started in the mid 1950s (1954, 1955ish)

Compare this to the trademark stamp on the previous 2660g cymbal with more obvious bottom hammering

I did a double take on this one because the three dots in a triangle (those again?) are not fully there. Just the lower left of the three made it. But then it has accumulated lots of other dots of tarnish to make up for that.

I am showing these two 21" cymbals to show how much variation there is between the tops and bottoms between different cymbals with the same trademark. Now back to trying to relocate my auto advance top hammering only example. Thank you for you patience.

 

[mattr]

To really get a understanding of the era in which an A. Zildjian was produced, you have to look at the telltale manufacturing signs:

- 7/16in. hole size: dead giveaway, used from 1929 thru to late 1950s. (Though I was told it was early 1960s for .500 hole, but that could be recollection issues).

- Cup shapes: the 1930s thru 1940s, you get some surprisingly taller cup shapes or odd shapes (though that could also be a die issue) that seem by the 1950s-60s weren’t used anymore, or they had more consistent presses and die sets.

- Bottom side hammering: this is a big indicator that the cymbal is before the late-1960s if it’s been hammered on the bottom side only. The hammering between hits, or between row, is less consistent.

- Top side hammering: the auto hammers came in the late 1960s. No idea why the changes from bottom to top side hammering… it’s a head scratcher! (Note this cymbal’s duller appearance from the carbide tooling).

- Burnished appearance: the shinier appearance of the metal is from using pre-carbide tooling and lower lathe speeds. Carbide tooling was adopted in the early to mid-1960s. Less reliable indicator, because depended on how dull/sharp the final pass edge was on cutting tool. Though the shininess sometimes could be very pronounced… especially in 1930s/40s cymbals.

- Micro chatter in the tonal groves: either in the late 1960s or early 1970s, Zildjian invested in some beefier lathes, that also ran at faster RPMs. I think these higher speeds introduced micro chatter into the groove path.

-Inconsistent lathing: you can see the zones in which the operator had to lift his tool off to reposition himself. Less defined tonal grooves. By the early 1970s, much more consistent grooves that are deeper. (Note the pronounced shape of this cup).

So, stamps, shapes and even inconsistent lathing are not worth a whole lot in my opinion. These indicators explained above are a much more accurate detail of certain eras.

 

[zenstat]

Thanks for your detailed reply @mattr I know how long it takes to compile these sorts of illustrated guides.

I found one set of the cymbals with a 60s stamp and I think they show auto advance top hammering.

Vintage 60s A. Zildjian 22" Ride & 18" Crash - LOWERED + FREE SHIP

A couple of beauties! Gone back and forth on selling these. Here is a video of them. Watch your volume, camera gain was up a bit high. 1.) 22" A. Zildjian 1960s Stamp Ride @ 2960g. No cracks, just minor nicks, marks, fingerprints, and very slight keyholing. $250 SHIPPED CONUS 2.) 18" A...

www.drumforum.org

But I'm puzzled by what I see on the bottom. Is that bottom hammering? Or print through from the strong hammering on the top? I have no trouble distinguishing print through from bottom hammering when I hold a cymbal in my hand. But just from photos? Tricky.

 

[mattr]

Thanks for your detailed reply @mattr I know how long it takes to compile these sorts of illustrated guides.

I found one set of the cymbals with a 60s stamp and I think they show auto advance top hammering.

Vintage 60s A. Zildjian 22" Ride & 18" Crash - LOWERED + FREE SHIP

A couple of beauties! Gone back and forth on selling these. Here is a video of them. Watch your volume, camera gain was up a bit high. 1.) 22" A. Zildjian 1960s Stamp Ride @ 2960g. No cracks, just minor nicks, marks, fingerprints, and very slight keyholing. $250 SHIPPED CONUS 2.) 18" A...

www.drumforum.org

But I'm puzzled by what I see on the bottom. Is that bottom hammering? Or print through from the strong hammering on the top? I have no trouble distinguishing print through from bottom hammering when I hold a cymbal in my hand. But just from photos? Tricky.

Definitely top hammered, and the shadowing on the bottom makes it’s hard to tell if it’s a dimple or protrusion. Bad lathing on this cymbal top side and appearance of plier marks… would gander late 60s and throughout the 70s.

 

[jdrumma]

 

[jdrumma]

Well. I went and picked this one up. Only played brief but I really like it!

These are some quick pictures that hopefully illustrate some of the details mentioned previously.

Sincere thanks for all the knowledge being shared here. It is greatly appreciated!

 

[Cliff DeArment]

What is the hole size?

 

[jdrumma]

 

[mattr]

View attachment 646607

Definitely top hammered, and the shadowing on the bottom makes it’s hard to tell if it’s a dimple or protrusion. Bad lathing on this cymbal top side and appearance of plier marks… would gander late 60s and throughout the 70s.

I’ll walk this one back being top hammered only and late 60s-70s era, since the bottom hammering is so pronounced and I might be reading the hammer shadowing wrong (mistaken a dimple for a protrusion). The higher shine suggests pre-carbide… though that could be a Brasso for all we know. Need to see more pics or in person.

 

[jdrumma]

I'll try and take some more pics soon.

And Matt, if you are ever south of Boston I'll be happy to show you in person!